# Cranick's Folly: Libertarianism at its finest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104 "2010-10-05T09:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/281 "2010-10-06T18:55:16Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > Inevitable lawsuits? Will they be suing the FDNY for not responding as well? Say Cranick’s kid died in the fire. Do you really think he wouldn’t sue the city? Even if he didn’t win (although I think he might), it will still cost the city far more than $75 to defend themselves. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/282 "2010-10-06T18:58:06Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > 1. Have to likely pay more to the firefighters to assume the risk of being assaulted by home owners. I can’t begin to explain how much I hate hearing this little piece of bullshit, on every page of this debate. But tell me something, is it just the South Fulton FD, or can Mr Cranick pick any fire department to assault? And if he promises a guy $75 to do the beating for him, can he welch on that deal too? THAT is how the Mob operated, pay us or something bad might happen. Congrats for codifying that for them. How fucked up does a society have to get where this is considered sound logic. Right now I have my car in the shop, I plan not to pay them. After all, they should worry more about the risk of assault, then the few hundred bucks for some belts. Seriously, how fucked do we have to be to allow this idiot to not pay. Why are you so willing to just leap over that nugget and then justify his criminal actions. Not paying the fee should be criminal misconduct resulting in property damage and the death of three animals. If there is a God (and that God isn’t libertarian) he’ll use what ever power he has left to get the insurance company to totally fuck this guy too. He might not have deserved to lose his house, or his animals, but he really deserves to be seriously punished by what ever karmic powers are out there. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/283 "2010-10-06T18:58:28Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > That’s why you sell the debt like any company would do in a similar situation. It’s really not the complicated, nor is it expensive. All you would need to do is set the costs such that your retrieval efforts would be paid for. You act as if a million other people haven’t already solved this problem. Do you have any idea how complicated the legal and administrative mechanisms are to allow what you propose? Let me break it down for you: A governmental unit is seeking to have a super-priority lien attached to a house, only to be sold at something like 5% of the original lien value to a 3rd party private entity for an indeterminate amount that is only calculated at the time of peril while one of the parties to the contract is under extreme duress. Yes, millions of people have solved the problem. It’s paying $75. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/284 "2010-10-06T18:59:20Z")
Wouldn’t taxing rural residents to pay for fire service, say to nearby municipal fire departments actually lessen the financial load to municipal residents? I assume, and I could be wrong, that a vast majority of FD expenses are costs associated with having resources available and not the actual putting out fires. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/285 "2010-10-06T19:01:27Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > > > Inevitable lawsuits? Will they be suing the FDNY for not responding as well? > > Say Cranick’s kid died in the fire. Do you really think he wouldn’t sue the city? Even if he didn’t win (although I think he might), it will still cost the city far more than $75 to defend themselves. If Cranick’s kid died in the fire, I would expect the country to find Cranick personally liable. He did, after all, start the fire. And he also knew that he didn’t have fire protection. You clearly missed this over the past 6 pages: Mr Cranick had a choice, pay $75 for fire services. He CHOOSE not to subscribe. Without a subscription he has no access to fire services. He didn’t pay, so they didn’t provide a service. What part of that confuses you? What services do you normally get for free? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/286 "2010-10-06T19:02:05Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > Wouldn’t taxing rural residents to pay for fire service, say to nearby municipal fire departments actually lessen the financial load to municipal residents? Yes, it would. Unfortunately they can’t unilaterally levy the taxes. The non-municipal residents have to agree to it. ---
**Author:** ![hdc\_bst](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/9f8e36/32.png) [@hdc\_bst](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hdc_bst)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/287 "2010-10-06T19:03:40Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > I can’t begin to explain how much I hate hearing this little piece of bullshit, on every page of this debate. Thank you for calling this one out. What is truly infuriating is that some proponents of the ‘we must acquiesce to thugs’ argument accused the SFFD of strong arm extortion! ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/288 "2010-10-06T19:04:33Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > That’s right, know why? Because Best Buy has a system in place to sell [service], the fire department does not. > > > > In other words, the fire department is not set up to provide a service on a pay-per-fire basis. It’s unrealistic to expect them to suddenly have a value in mind for Cranick to pay. > > > > I think by now we’ve all agreed that charging him the $75 is both too cheap, and bad for their business model. > > > > But then, to calculate what the actual cost is puts them into the position of being extortionists. As far as I can tell, anything other than a subscription service isn’t going to work. > > I don’t know, I think a mandatory tax-supported Fire Department might just work. Good luck getting elected with a tax and spend platform like that. Get off my lawn you hippie liberal, and cut your hair. (the county residents for the past 20 years didn’t want a tax based system) ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/289 "2010-10-06T19:04:50Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > And that’s paid for by the $75 the other guy paid. Going out there to service a paying client isn’t a waste of our money My point is that if you are gonna have to go out there anyway, it costs you next to nothing to deal with the original problem as opposed to the resultant secondary issues. Particularly, if you can recoup the costs several times over by billing the non-paying home owner. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > I have no idea how this has anything to do with wasting money by setting up a debt collection wing of the local FD They wouldn’t have to set up a debt collecting wing. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > The municipality doesn’t care about non-municipal tax revenues. Are you sure they don’t pay any taxes to SF? Either way, globally speaking, it cost everyone to let this guy’s house burn down > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > Um, they have zero legal liability to respond to a call. Sorry. Which means they can’t be sued, right? Oh wait, it doesn’t mean that. > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > That’s not a risk that most employees of most agencies ever consider assuming. Claiming a risk premium cost because one jackass in 10 years may flip out and punch out your employees because he doesn’t like your policies is the epitome of making shit up to support a weak argument. Do you honestly think such a thing is unforeseeable? What would have happened if that guy shot the fire chief? There is a point in which someone has to be responsible and act like an adult. Yes, Cranick shit the bed, but the rational people should realize it doesn’t help to double down on the stupidity just to prove a point. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/290 "2010-10-06T19:10:03Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > > And that’s paid for by the $75 the other guy paid. Going out there to service a paying client isn’t a waste of our money > > My point is that if you are gonna have to go out there anyway, it costs you next to nothing to deal with the original problem as opposed to the resultant secondary issues. Particularly, if you can recoup the costs several times over by billing the non-paying home owner. No, you are 124% wrong. Fighting a fire is not cheap, I’m not sure why you think it is. Obviously Cranick thought it was cheap as well. At the very least, consider the liability from the FD’s perspective. You have a fire crew _risking their lives_ to extinguish this blaze. If something happens to one of those firefighters, who is going to pay for that? Wait, you mean you didn’t bother to think about any of this from the FD perspective? ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/291 "2010-10-06T19:12:22Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > My point is that if you are gonna have to go out there anyway, it costs you next to nothing to deal with the original problem as opposed to the resultant secondary issues. Particularly, if you can recoup the costs several times over by billing the non-paying home owner. No, it costs you alot. Because no one is going to renew their $75 fee net year. And if you’re recovering “the costs several times over” you are now extorting a party under duress. Thanks, Judge, for throwing out an unconscionable contract! > [@](#): > > Are you sure they don’t pay any taxes to SF? Either way, globally speaking, it cost everyone to let this guy’s house burn down No, it doesn’t actually cost everyone. The entire point of property tax government funding is that your property taxes go to support your government services. Income taxes go to support the whole entity. > [@](#): > > Which means they can’t be sued, right? Oh wait, it doesn’t mean that. They’re not going to settle a baseless claim. > [@](#): > > Do you honestly think such a thing is unforeseeable? What would have happened if that guy shot the fire chief? There is a point in which someone has to be responsible and act like an adult. Yes, Cranick shit the bed, but the rational people should realize it doesn’t help to double down on the stupidity just to prove a point. This is a total non sequitur. CVS doesn’t pay a risk premium to its employees on the off chance that Billy Bob punches out the cashier because he didn’t like their return policy. No one does, except for those who are engaged in law enforcement. Criminal behavior is, par excellence, an unforeseeable event. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/292 "2010-10-06T19:15:47Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > > And a lien on their house (the Cranicks did own a house, right?) wouldn’t be effective? > > No. It’s costly, and more importantly you don’t get paid for a long time. What’s a fire department supposed to buy equipment, oxygen tanks, and pay their firemen with, scrip? So why do we even have liens if it takes so long to make good on them? How long is ‘long’? I mean, really, society uses liens on properties to handle these things all the time. You’re saying something doesn’t work which is common practice. Thank God I don’t live near such an archaic place… ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/293 "2010-10-06T19:15:59Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > Are you sure they don’t pay any taxes to SF? Either way, globally speaking, it cost everyone to let this guy’s house burn down Okay, how much is that cost, you know, globally? (hint we did this on page 2) Clearly, the cost is less than $75. The community over the past 20 years has done the calculation and concluded that they don’t give a fuck if Mr Cranick’s house burns down. What ever the cost, they are okay with that. And remember, he’s getting a nice fat insurance pay out that’s going to rebuild his house. Lots of tax revenue pouring back into the community. And hey, maybe the value of his house will go up–more tax revenue. > [@brickbacon](#): > > Do you honestly think such a thing is unforeseeable? What would have happened if that guy shot the fire chief? There is a point in which someone has to be responsible and act like an adult. Yes, Cranick shit the bed, but the rational people should realize it doesn’t help to double down on the stupidity just to prove a point. Fuck, you said it again. When you wrote that, were you worried someone would come over and try to slap some sense back into you? If Cranick decides to go after the fire department, that’s on his head. He will be tried, convicted, and raped for the next 10-15 years. We’re trying to have a civilized society here. Mr Cranick shit the bed, and now he gets to watch it burn. No one else is to blame, especially not a single one of the area fire departments. He had a choice, he made it, this is the outcome. No one else bares any responsibility but him. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/294 "2010-10-06T19:18:33Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > So why do we even have liens if it takes so long to make good on them? How long is ‘long’? I mean, really, society uses liens on properties to handle these things all the time. You’re saying something doesn’t work which is common practice. > > Thank God I don’t live near such an archaic place… Because other entities are better situated to process and handle the lengthy process of making good on the lien? Because that’s their primary economic activity? But let’s go ask Bank of America if they still don’t want to bother with liens because of the lengthy time it takes to complete a foreclosure. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/295 "2010-10-06T19:22:16Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@CandidGamera](#): > > > > I don’t know, I think a mandatory tax-supported Fire Department might just work. > > Good luck getting elected with a tax and spend platform like that. Get off my lawn you hippie liberal, and cut your hair. (the county residents for the past 20 years didn’t want a tax based system) So you’re arguing that we should pretend everything that happened here is okay because some morons voted against doing it correctly? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/296 "2010-10-06T19:23:07Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > > No. It’s costly, and more importantly you don’t get paid for a long time. What’s a fire department supposed to buy equipment, oxygen tanks, and pay their firemen with, scrip? > > So why do we even have liens if it takes so long to make good on them? How long is ‘long’? I mean, really, society uses liens on properties to handle these things all the time. You’re saying something doesn’t work which is common practice. > > Thank God I don’t live near such an archaic place… Let’s all take a moment to be thankful we don’t live near Mr Cranick. As to your lean question, what you’ll find is that a small select group uses them a lot. When you get a loan for a car the lender puts a lien on your car. When you get construction work done the contractors put a lien on the property. It’s done by the government for unpaid taxes. Outside of that I don’t think it happens all that often. The suggestion in this thread wasn’t made seriously, it was made by people that (a) don’t understand fire departments, and (b) don’t understand liens. It’s not done all willy nilly by random service providers. I’m not even sure the municipal fire department _could_ file a lien. But as I said 6 or 7 times, now the article would simply about the heartless fire department that put a lien on an old man’s house. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/297 "2010-10-06T19:23:55Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > You clearly missed this over the past 6 pages: Mr Cranick had a choice, pay $75 for fire services. He CHOOSE not to subscribe. Without a subscription he has no access to fire services. He didn’t pay, so they didn’t provide a service. But from what I read he DID offer to pay them to show up when the fire started. They refused to take his money. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/298 "2010-10-06T19:24:25Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > Good luck getting elected with a tax and spend platform like that. Get off my lawn you hippie liberal, and cut your hair. (the county residents for the past 20 years didn’t want a tax based system) > > So you’re arguing that we should pretend everything that happened here is okay because some morons voted against doing it correctly? you get the government you deserve in a democracy. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/299 "2010-10-06T19:24:39Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > And that’s paid for by the $75 the other guy paid. Going out there to service a paying client isn’t a waste of our money It is if you go out there and deliberately provide an inferior service (waiting until the fire spreads to his property, instead of extinguishing it immediately) at greater cost (waiting for the fire to spread means more work) to prevent the Cranicks receiving any side-benefit from you doing your job. ---
**Author:** ![Rumor\_Watkins](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/d9b06d/32.png) [@Rumor\_Watkins](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rumor_Watkins)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/300 "2010-10-06T19:25:37Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > You clearly missed this over the past 6 pages: Mr Cranick had a choice, pay $75 for fire services. He CHOOSE not to subscribe. Without a subscription he has no access to fire services. He didn’t pay, so they didn’t provide a service. > > But from what I read he DID offer to pay them to show up when the fire started. > > They refused to take his money. yeah, because he was supposed to have made that payment choice a while ago. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104.md?page=16)