# Cranick's Folly: Libertarianism at its finest? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 5, 2010, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104 "2010-10-05T09:02:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 18
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/341 "2010-10-07T03:49:52Z")
While I don’t agree with **brickbacon’s** assessment of the situation in general I’m going to side with his statement that a fire is an emergency. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/342 "2010-10-07T04:01:45Z")
> [@Odesio](#): > > While I don’t agree with **brickbacon’s** assessment of the situation in general I’m going to side with his statement that a fire is an emergency. Fire _can_ be an emergency, especially when there is a risk to human life. But the blanket statement “fire is an emergency” doesn’t carry enough validity to warrant legitimate discussion. ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/343 "2010-10-07T04:47:26Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > 1. That’s a problem no matter what. If you did the same thing, your neighbour would call, the FD would come, but they wouldn’t know the house was full of orphans, and wouldn’t know to go in looking. But they would put out the fire. That alone would do a lot to prevent unnecessary harm to anyone who may be in the house. > [@emacknight](#): > > 1. Your insistence that people will die is unfounded. The FD responds to life saving situations, the $75 fee is based more on saving property. They asked if everyone was out. If his son had been inside they’d have saved the son, then let the house burn. How do you know that? > [@emacknight](#): > > No it’s not. Yes, it is. Why do you think people call 911 when there is a fire. It’s an emergency number. Just as every emergency room visit is not life or death, not every fire is; either way, they are both emergencies in a strict sense. > [@emacknight](#): > > To continue with the hospital analogy: an ER is required to perform life saving measures, essentially free of charge, but that’s it. It’s not “essentially free of charge”. Hospitals still bill you, and they expect you to pay. In fact, they generally bill you more than the insurance companies pay. If you don’t pay, they often turn it over to a collection agency. They may not get every cent owed, but they don’t do anything for free. Regardless, just because someone doesn’t pay doesn’t make it free. > [@emacknight](#): > > The FD in this scenario is under the same requirements. They will perform life saving measures, and that’s it. Correct if I’m wrong, but they refused to even come out. How would they assess whether lives were at risk if they won’t even bother to leave the station? > [@emacknight](#): > > He didn’t, so clearly he didn’t care about his house, and neither does the FD, or the county, or society. Society clearly cares, otherwise this wouldn’t be a news story, nor would we have blanket socialized fire protection in most areas. People care when someone else’s house burns down. > [@emacknight](#): > > People that smoke risk getting cancer. To me smoking is dumber than not paying $75 for fire service. Is getting lung cancer not a hell of a punishment for years of bad decisions? So should doctors not treat lung cancers for people who smoke? What about if the person has no insurance? Should they not be allowed to bill him after his treatment if he agrees to pay? ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/344 "2010-10-07T06:03:04Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > I think we need national legislation saying you can’t be turned down for fire insurance by a pre-existing condition like your house being on fire already. This will deal with the problem of predatory fire departments driving up the cost of fire insurance by buying new equipment. I know you’re a deceived right-winger who thinks your remark is some _reductio ad absurdem_ of liberalism. You are wrong. It is a _reductio ad absurdem_ of the absurd system the U.S. is gravitating towards, and will continue to approach as long as rightwing-dominated stupidism is ascendant. The “liberal” system I envision would actually be _more libertartarian_ than the Frankenstein system that the confused thinking of _both_ extremes is driving us towards. There would be taxpayer-financed health care providing minimal care, with individuals and insurers free to negotiate supplementary care without government restraint. Certain other community services, including fire protection, would also be taxpayer financed. And, yes, taxpayers would pay their taxes, unlike in present-day U.S.A. where much right-wing “thought” has encouraged many Americans to believe tax evasion is patriotic. > [@Shodan](#): > > Regards, > Shodan On a separate matter, I’m curious: Do you play Go ? ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/345 "2010-10-07T08:05:51Z")
I’m not reading through this entire thread, so this point may have been raised. I am a recovering libertarian (more accurately, a recovering Objectivist), and one my differences with them is their lack of simple generosity. Generosity has always been a core American value, and stinginess has always been somewhat unAmerican. Through most of our nation’s history, we have enjoyed abundance, and have always shared that abundance whenever the need arose. But stinginess has somehow become an American value of the Right. It is stingy not to be compassionate toward people who can’t afford medical care. It is stingy to deny the right of marriage to gay people. And it is stingy to allow a house to burn (and 4 animals to perish) because the owners didn’t pay a $75 fee. Oh sure, the Libertarian answer would be that I’m being stingy to the firefighters and the taxpayers. They may be right, but their total lack of generosity is still unAmerican. ---
**Author:** ![CyclopticXander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/59ef9b/32.png) [@CyclopticXander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CyclopticXander)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/346 "2010-10-07T10:02:27Z")
I didn’t have time to read through the entire thread so I don’t know if it has been mentioned, but family pets died in the fire. I’ve barely heard that mentioned in all the venues I’ve heard this debated in. Does the fact that animals were allowed to burn to death over a $75 fee affect the moral landscape for anyone besides myself? I know that legally speaking animals are property just like anything else in the house, but when it comes to collateral damage as a result of this ideological tug-of-war, I would think most people would draw some kind of moral distinction between inanimate objects and living things who suffer. I know this is a step away from the philosophical debate about the role of government and personal responsibility or whatever. But that just rubs me the wrong way. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby\_Slippers](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/94ad74/32.png) [@Ruby\_Slippers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby_Slippers)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/347 "2010-10-07T11:01:34Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > You clearly missed this over the past 6 pages: Mr Cranick had a choice, pay $75 for fire services. He CHOOSE not to subscribe. Without a subscription he has no access to fire services. He didn’t pay, so they didn’t provide a service. > > But from what I read he DID offer to pay them to show up when the fire started. > > They refused to take his money. I seriously doubt that he was offering cash on the spot. He was asking to be billed, and as others have pointed out, it’s quite likely he wouldn’t (or couldn’t) have paid when the bill was presented. Those who say the FD should just double the cost to account for non-payment are overlooking the fact that when you don’t get paid, whether it’s doubled or not, your net revenue is zero. Not to mention the fact that people who can’t or won’t pay $75 per year for the subscription are not likely to fork over $5,000 or $10,000. And those of you who suggest billing $100,000? Have you actually seen the kinds of houses that are common in these rural areas? Would YOU pay $100,000 to save a house that might have a market value of $40,000? I consider myself a liberal, but I’m not sure you can expect government to solve every problem. If people choose to live in sparsely populated rural areas that can’t support services typically provided in more densely populated areas, I don’t believe that creates an obligation on those more densely populated areas – at least not without creating a corresponding obligation on those rural residents to pay for the services through taxes. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/348 "2010-10-07T13:20:47Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@CandidGamera](#): > > > > So you’re arguing that we should pretend everything that happened here is okay because some morons voted against doing it correctly? > > I would love to step in and help out all of the morons that vote against their self interest, I truly would, but the system just isn’t set up for that. This idiot is one symptom of a much MUCH larger problem. > > They’ve had this system for 20 years! This is not the first house to burn down. This is what the morons want, so this is what the morons get. So you agree that the system they have is bad. Excellent! Glad we cleared that up. ---
**Author:** ![CandidGamera](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/candidgamera/32/2878_2.png) [@CandidGamera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CandidGamera)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/349 "2010-10-07T13:25:26Z")
> [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > [@CandidGamera](#): > > > > Skip the platitudes. I’m talking about what actually happened in this incident. I think it makes a clear argument that the people who voted against a tax-supported fire department are idiots. That this is a bad result, and an inevitable result, and furthermore, a foreseeable result of the path they chose. > > Ok, so how do you propose to rescue them from their own idiocy? If you give them “more government” they scream at you and call you a socialist, and then promptly vote you out of office. That’s why I said what I said. Education? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/350 "2010-10-07T14:33:01Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > What’s the alternative? Fires don’t stay contained - as we can see in this case, it spread to his neighbour’s house - who HAD payed - while in all likelihood his neihbour’s house would’ve been fine if they’d bothered to start putting out the fire ASAP instead of being dicks. This is why fire protection, like defense, is an inherently public good for which the simple free-market model breaks down. Allowing individuals to opt out of fire coverage and letting their property become the nuclei of spreading fires is like allowing individuals to opt out of national defense coverage and letting their property become al-Qaeda safe houses. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/351 "2010-10-07T16:41:17Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > [@Laudenum](#): > > > > Nope. > > > > They are firefighters who are only employed to put out fires in homes that pay a fee to fund the service - they have no duty to people who don’t pay. > > Yes, they do. Fires don’t respect property lines. Your attitude is the sort that burns down cities. The people in that town set up a system where you get what you pay for from the government (because some people think that’s how government should work). This is the natural result of that retarded view of government. I bet everybody pays that firefighting fee now and I bet some people might even start to wonder if perhaps they shouldn’t just roll the whole thing into the real estate tax. The problem isn’t the firefighters, the problem is the idiot who devised a system where things like firefighting isn’t a public service. It would be like imposing a special “police fee” and only coming out to check out disturbances at the homes of dues paying members. There are some things that should be available to everyone regardless of ability to pay. Things like police protection, access to the courts, and health care. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/352 "2010-10-07T19:25:11Z")
> [@brickbacon](#): > > How do you know that? Because they said so. [ > [@](#): > > They say if someone would have been inside the home, they would not have stood by and watched it burn. ]([http://www.kfvs12.com/Global/story.asp?S=13281481](http://www.kfvs12.com/Global/story.asp?S=13281481)) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/353 "2010-10-07T19:49:28Z")
As pointed out though, they did let his pets burn alive. And apparently they’ve let other animals burn to death in similar cases, like a barn full of horses. ---
**Author:** ![Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a183cd/32.png) [@Barkis\_is\_Willin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Barkis_is_Willin)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/354 "2010-10-07T19:51:57Z")
Do we actually know if the SFPD was in a position to save the pets? ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/355 "2010-10-07T19:55:46Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As pointed out though, they did let his pets burn alive. And apparently they’ve let other animals burn to death in similar cases, like a barn full of horses. Slight correction, it was Cranick that let the pets burn, he also started the fire, and refused to pay the subscription fee. The FD owed neither him, nor his house, nor his pets anything. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/356 "2010-10-07T19:59:43Z")
> [@emacknight](#): > > > [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > > > As pointed out though, they did let his pets burn alive. And apparently they’ve let other animals burn to death in similar cases, like a barn full of horses. > > Slight correction, it was Cranick that let the pets burn, he also started the fire, and refused to pay the subscription fee. The FD owed neither him, nor his house, nor his pets anything. A rather sociopathic attitude. ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/357 "2010-10-07T20:00:37Z")
> [@CandidGamera](#): > > > [@emacknight](#): > > > > I would love to step in and help out all of the morons that vote against their self interest, I truly would, but the system just isn’t set up for that. This idiot is one symptom of a much MUCH larger problem. > > > > They’ve had this system for 20 years! This is not the first house to burn down. This is what the morons want, so this is what the morons get. > > So you agree that the system they have is bad. Excellent! Glad we cleared that up. It’s not a bad system. It’s the worst possible system imaginable. Wait, it’s worse than that because last week I would never have \*imagined \*a system like this. My apologies if I wasn’t clearer over the past 6 pages. Now, with that said, nothing in this system allows us to blame the FD. > [@CandidGamera](#): > > > [@Rumor\_Watkins](#): > > > > Ok, so how do you propose to rescue them from their own idiocy? If you give them “more government” they scream at you and call you a socialist, and then promptly vote you out of office. That’s why I said what I said. > > Education? You mean home schooling? ha, no wait, it was the liberals fault! Think about it, this fucknut is the product of socialized education. If his parents hadn’t been taxed enough already, they could have put him in a respectable private school where he would have been properly schooled in risk assessment and taking responsibility–neither of which are currently taught in _government run_ schools (at least I don’t think). ---
**Author:** ![emacknight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3ec8ea/32.png) [@emacknight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emacknight)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2010, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/358 "2010-10-07T20:03:11Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > As pointed out though, they did let his pets burn alive. And apparently they’ve let other animals burn to death in similar cases, like a barn full of horses. That’s a rather sociopathic way of looking at it. But I as you said they are terrorists that started the fire, so it seems fitting that they’d trap his animals inside, you know, to really drive home the point. Did you know the cat was his granddaughter’s??? ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/359 "2011-12-07T04:28:47Z")
UPDATE: It happened again! > **[Tennessee family home burns while firefighters watch](https://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/tennessee-family-home-burns-while-firefighters-watch-191241763.html)** > > A Tennessee couple helplessly watched their home burn to the ground, along with all of their possessions, because they did not pay a $75 annual fee to the local fire department. Vicky Bell told the NBC affiliate WPSD-TV that she called 911 when her... Pay your damn fire fees! ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [December 7, 2011, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104/360 "2011-12-07T05:43:04Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > UPDATE: It happened again! > > [Tennessee family home burns while firefighters watch](http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/sideshow/tennessee-family-home-burns-while-firefighters-watch-191241763.html) > > Pay your damn fire fees! Holy fucktits…!!! If I lived in that county, after the last fiasco, you bet your ass I’d have paid the $75 fee or moved… Poor people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104.md?page=17) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cranicks-folly-libertarianism-at-its-finest/556104.md?page=19)