# Crash-landing jet: was ejection from the ground a good idea? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2022, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641 "2022-12-16T12:57:10Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![solost](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/solost/32/11776_2.png) [@solost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/solost)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 12:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/1 "2022-12-16T12:57:10Z")
Not sure if this is a factual question, but I imagine there are hard-and-fast protocols for this. Anyway, a video clip of military jet crash-landing on the runway has been playing very often on the news yesterday and today (link to clip below). The jet comes down vertically, bounces on its landing gear, for a second it looks like it will be a rough but not too damaging landing. Then the jet tips forward hard on its nose and spins around several times. The pilot ejects toward the end of all that, when the momentum of the jet seems to be coming to a stop. It made me wonder, was it a good idea for the pilot to eject in that situation? I know there are dangers inherent in ejecting at any height (RIP, Goose from Top Gun I), and I thought ejecting from the ground doesn’t give the chute enough height to safely land (though it looks like he came down slowly enough-- hope he’s ok). Was the pilot concerned with a fuel explosion? Is the ejection automatic with a certain degree of impact, like an air bag? I’m not judging or knocking the pilot’s judgement at all because I have no idea what the proper thing to do is in a situation like that, but it seems like he would have been safer just staying with the plane. > **[Pilot ejects from fighter jet during crash landing](https://www.nbcnews.com/now/video/pilot-ejects-from-fighter-jet-during-crash-landing-157818949518)** > > A pilot was forced to eject from a fighter jet after a crash landing at a Naval base near Dallas. NBC News’ Valerie Castro has more on the investigation including how the whole incident was caught on camera.  ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/2 "2022-12-16T13:06:48Z")
> [@solost](#): > > and I thought ejecting from the ground doesn’t give the chute enough height to safely land (though it looks like he came down slowly enough-- hope he’s ok). Zero-zero ejection seats have been around for a while now, with the zero-zero meaning they can give you high probability of a safe landing when ejecting from zero altitude with zero velocity. > **[Ejection seat | Zero-zero ejection seat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ejection_seat#Zero-zero_ejection_seat)** > > A zero-zero ejection seat is designed to safely extract upward and land its occupant from a grounded stationary position (i.e., zero altitude and zero airspeed), specifically from aircraft cockpits. The zero-zero capability was developed to help aircrews escape upward from unrecoverable emergencies during low-altitude and/or low-speed flight, as well as ground mishaps. Parachutes require a minimum altitude for opening, to give time for deceleration to a safe landing speed. Thus, prior to the intr... A safe landing in this situation is certainly not guaranteed. In this case the pilot was swaying to and fro under his canopy as he descended; he happened to touch down at a good moment this time, but he could just as easily have touched down at a moment when he was swinging downward, causing a bonebreaker of a touchdown. As for what the pilot was thinking at the time and whether ejection in this particular situation was a good idea or not, it remains to be seen. The incident just happened yesterday, and there’s not a lot of detail just yet about what caused the accident or what led to the pilot’s decision to eject. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/3 "2022-12-16T13:20:20Z")
Anyone know what the smoke/fog is that’s coming from the back end of the plane? Here’s an uninterrupted video showing that the smoke is happening for at least twelve seconds prior to the initial touchdown of the plane: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/UdSVMgay0MI/maxresdefault.jpg "RAW VIDEO: F-35 crashes during test flight at Naval Air Station Joint Reserve Base Fort Worth") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdSVMgay0MI) Is that a normal thing for an F-35 in hover mode, or is there clearly a mechanical problem with this plane? If it was a particularly humid day then I could imagine some weird air flow pattern that results in a low-pressure zone and condensation. For comparison, here’s an F-35 hovering without any smoke/fog coming from it: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/KBI9yDvJrT0/maxresdefault.jpg "Watch an F-35 Fighter Jet Hover at the 2016 Farnborough Air Show") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KBI9yDvJrT0) ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/4 "2022-12-16T13:27:05Z")
If the jet had exploded, he would have been killed so, yeah, it was a good idea. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/5 "2022-12-16T14:34:21Z")
I would have to agree. And ejections can hurt you even in the best circumstances. The plane might be salvageable. A dead pilot trained to fly those, not so much. ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/6 "2022-12-16T15:32:06Z")
Did engine shut down fail? That seems reason enough to get as far away from the plane as possible. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/7 "2022-12-16T15:52:50Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Is that a normal thing for an F-35 in hover mode, or is there clearly a mechanical problem with this plane? It’s possible that something in the hydraulics ruptured, spraying something that smokes into the jet stream. The way the tail end moves up so abruptly makes it look like there was a failure of the ducting system that controls the thrust vectoring. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/8 "2022-12-16T18:39:28Z")
The initial set-down was quicker than normal (some disagreement). Impact caused the front lift fan to disengage, either from a shock sensor or the driveshaft broke/uncoupled. The throttle and thrust continued from aft exhaust where the nozzle had pivoted down (normal for a hover/landing) driving the nose wheel/gear into the ground. I haven’t a clue as to the smoke prior to impact. Have to wait for the final report. So supposition on another board is that the throttle jammed or a logic failure. The zero-zero ejection seat worked great. Still gives the pilot a big whack. There’s a limit on how many times a pilot can be ejected before he gets a desk job. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/9 "2022-12-16T19:00:57Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > There’s a limit on how many times a pilot can be ejected before he gets a desk job. There’s a bit of pilot legend that says every ejection permanently costs an inch of height from spinal compression. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2022, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/10 "2022-12-16T22:21:22Z")
> [@gnoitall](#): > > There’s a bit of pilot legend that says every ejection permanently costs an inch of height from spinal compression. When I was trying to be a naval airman they told me (6’2") that if I had to eject, I’d likely lose my knees! woah! ---
**Author:** ![don\_t\_ask](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@don\_t\_ask](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/don_t_ask)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 6:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/11 "2022-12-17T06:49:33Z")
Here is American/Aussie musician/doctor Deniz Tek’s account of a ground level “ejection”: [Nacho’s Story (Arizona-1982)](https://www.deniztek.com/nachos-story). It’s worth a quick read. The call sign Iceman was rumored to be stolen from Tek, but it seems not: [The real ‘Iceman’ was a Navy flight surgeon and ‘high-energy rock’ guitarist](https://www.stripes.com/branches/navy/2022-03-09/top-gun-iceman-deniz-tek-radio-birdman-val-kilmer-tom-cruise-5287770.html) ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/12 "2022-12-17T11:30:17Z")
As a total aside, I was always curious about the commonality of Deniz and Kilmer’s Iceman call sign. Being a total rabid Radio Birdman fan I notice these things. Deniz was a member of Radio Birdman which was one of the most influential Oz bands of the 70’s. Although they took a lot from Iggy and the Stooges, and the MC5, they tore their own furrow, and were a big part of Oz pub rock. They cast a long shadow. I last saw them a couple of years ago. It never gets old. For the curious, a TV gig from 1977. Homage to Iggy and MC5, then a classic of their own. Deniz is the dark haired one with the white Epiphone Crestwood guitar. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/TfjvqqOU4kE/maxresdefault.jpg "Radio Birdman live on Australian TV 1977") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TfjvqqOU4kE) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/13 "2022-12-17T14:20:16Z")
Hard to have a true FQ answer here. I do know that in the F-16 it was written procedure to eject on the ground if the airplane was about to run off the side of a runway into the dirt or grass or whatever. The risk of the airplane ending up upside down on fire with you in it was considered greater than the risk of ejecting. If the airplane happened to stop upright it could be repaired whether you’d ejected or not. FWIW, here’s a post in the General Aviation thread w an ensuring discussion about this accident including the pilot’s decision to eject: > [@The Great Ongoing Aviation Thread (general and other)](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-great-ongoing-general-aviation-thread/600499/3200): > > Not quite GA, but this jet still belonged to Lockheed, not to the military when this little oops took place. [[F-35B Crashes During Vertical Landing] ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOuJlphTnjw) IMO it’s pretty clear what happened: the forward lift fan drive failed about the time he touched down a bit hard. So suddenly the aft exhaust was still lifting ~50% of the weight but the front was unsupported except for the landing gear. The engine accelerated as the drag of the lift fan came away and now we’re off to the races up on o… ---
**Author:** ![filmstar-en](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/50afbb/32.png) [@filmstar-en](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmstar-en)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2022, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/14 "2022-12-17T20:19:44Z")
I guess those things are expensive. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2022, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/15 "2022-12-18T00:10:23Z")
They retail for about US$250M. So a cool billion for a 4-pack. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2022, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/16 "2022-12-18T04:39:20Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > The zero-zero ejection seat worked great. Still gives the pilot a big whack. There’s a limit on how many times a pilot can be ejected before he gets a desk job. Is that because of accumulated body stress, or because the superiors conclude: « You know, how many times has Bob had to eject, again? Maybe we shouldn’t be trusting him with those planes anymore… » ---
**Author:** ![running\_coach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/running_coach/32/15836_2.png) [@running\_coach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/running_coach)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2022, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/17 "2022-12-18T04:53:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@smithsb](#): > > > > The zero-zero ejection seat worked great. Still gives the pilot a big whack. There’s a limit on how many times a pilot can be ejected before he gets a desk job. > > Is that because of accumulated body stress, or because the superiors conclude: « You know, how many times has Bob had to eject, again? Maybe we shouldn’t be trusting him with those planes anymore… » - > **[How Ejection Seats Work](https://science.howstuffworks.com/transport/flight/modern/ejection-seat.htm)** > > When a military aircraft is in trouble, the pilot may have to eject to save his life. Find out how this crucial escape system separates pilot from plane. 20Gs in a split second. Oof. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2022, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/18 "2022-12-18T06:53:08Z")
I remember during Gulf War 1 the Iraqis had captured a pilot who’d ejected and there was an interview with him. The US press had a hullabaloo over bruises on his face and I was thinking, “Those are entirely consistent with the rough handling you get ejecting an aircraft.” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2022, 1:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/19 "2022-12-18T13:26:24Z")
Compression fractures of the spine, prematurely damaged or bulging spinal discs, and shoulder, wrist and ankle dislocations are all common injuries from the ejection and seat separation. The faster you’re going, the worse the flail injuries to extremities, and yes, facial bruising, eye damage, etc. For our F-35 pilot these issues are minimal, but the spinal concerns are the same. Then comes the parachute ride down and landing. Which best case is much faster / harder than a modern sport parachute. So broken limbs or fractured pelvis are not exactly rare. Beats the heck out of being dead, but of the very few people I’ve met who’ve done it, nobody was looking forward to taking that ride again. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [December 18, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641/20 "2022-12-18T13:59:04Z")
> [@smithsb](#): > > The zero-zero ejection seat worked great. Still gives the pilot a big whack. There’s a limit on how many times a pilot can be ejected before he gets a desk job. I’m sure @LSLGuy guy would know better, but back in the 80s I knew a former fighter pilot who lost a plane due to mechanical failure and had to eject. According to what I remember of what he said (35 years ago!), he said that he wasn’t allowed to fly again. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crash-landing-jet-was-ejection-from-the-ground-a-good-idea/976641.md?page=2)