# creating a nation - online **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 11, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734 "2010-10-11T00:06:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ultraman100](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b77776/32.png) [@ultraman100](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultraman100)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/1 "2010-10-11T00:06:34Z")
is it possible to create a nation online? ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/2 "2010-10-11T00:13:06Z")
No. Of course, you may have a different definition of a nation from everybody else in the world. ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/3 "2010-10-11T01:13:43Z")
There are two common definitions of what makes a nation, the “it looks like a nation” definition and the “everyone thinks it’s a nation” definition. For the first, to be considered a nation, you need to have the stuff that nations generally have, such as an army, a government, money, official insects and the like, and most importantly, actual control over some bit of territory. It doesn’t have to be much, but there does have to be some, and a lot of the citizens have to live there. So it seems that if you go by this definition, you cannot have a nation online. However, by the second definition, you don’t strictly need any of these things. If all the other nations agree that you’re a nation, then they will make treaties with you, let you into the UN, send you ambassadors and well, treat you like a nation. While I find the establishment of a nation in this manner to be extraordinarily unlikely, it does seem possible that a new type of nation can be formed online. So, to sum up: yes and no, but mostly no. ---
**Author:** ![athelas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5e9695/32.png) [@athelas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/athelas)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/4 "2010-10-11T01:19:52Z")
> [@RadicalPi](#): > > For the first, to be considered a nation, you need to have the stuff that nations generally have, such as an army, a government, money, official insects and the like, and most importantly, actual control over some bit of territory. And that last bit is the sticking point - all land on earth is claimed by _some_ nation or other. There was an interesting experiment in creating a libertopia on an artificially constructed island: the [Republic of Minerva](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Minerva): > [@](#): > > In 1971, barges loaded with sand arrived from Australia, bringing the reef level above the water and allowing construction of a small tower and flag. The Republic of Minerva issued a declaration of independence on 19 January 1972, in letters to neighboring countries and even created their own currency. In February 1972, Morris C. Davis was elected as Provisional President of the Republic of Minerva. > > The declaration of independence, however, was greeted with great suspicion by other countries in the area. A conference of the neighboring states (Australia, New Zealand, Tonga, Fiji, Nauru, Western Samoa, Cook Islands) met on 24 February 1972 at which Tonga made a claim over the Minerva Reefs. > > A Tongan expedition was sent to enforce the claim. The Republic of Minerva flag was lowered. Tonga’s claim was recognized by the South Pacific Forum in September 1972. Meanwhile, Provisional President Davis was fired by founder Michael Oliver and the project collapsed in confusion… According to Glen Raphael, “The chief reason that the Minerva project failed was that the libertarians who were involved did not want to fight for their territory.” It’s a pity, it would have been interesting to see start-up nations actually succeed once in a while. ---
**Author:** ![lazybratsche](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ba8739/32.png) [@lazybratsche](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lazybratsche)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/5 "2010-10-11T01:23:26Z")
Traditional nations won’t take kindly to people that live within their borders but claim to be citizen of an abstract online nation. It’ll be hard to maintain an online government and military of some sort when every citizen is still subject to the laws of their physical nation. And that “physical host nation” still has the power to cut off the internet access for these would-be nation founders. ---
**Author:** ![ultraman100](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b77776/32.png) [@ultraman100](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultraman100)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/6 "2010-10-11T01:43:48Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Traditional nations won’t take kindly to people that live within their borders but claim to be citizen of an abstract online nation. It’ll be hard to maintain an online government and military of some sort when every citizen is still subject to the laws of their physical nation. And that “physical host nation” still has the power to cut off the internet access for these would-be nation founders. this is a nice response. a non-physical nation. could it work is the question. maybe one tiny island, with servers and a satellite dish would suffice for the physical element of this nation. ive heard of people buying islands for amounts of dollars one human can accumulate in less than one lifetime. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/7 "2010-10-11T02:05:53Z")
> [@athelas](#): > > And that last bit is the sticking point - all land on earth is claimed by _some_ nation or other. Actually there’s a [fair bit of Antarctica that is unclaimed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_claims_in_Antarctica#Unclaimed). However, [most of the more important countries](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antarctic_Treaty_System#Members) [won’t recognize](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_claims_in_Antarctica#Antarctic_Treaty) any territorial claims that Internetia might happen to make in that territory. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/8 "2010-10-11T02:30:05Z")
Most of you are talking about a **state** , not a **nation**. In order to properly answer the OP’s question (and in order for the OP to properly phrase his or her question) it needs to be clear what you are talking about. A **nation** is a group of people who feel they share both a common history and destiny. Typically they live in a contiguous geographical area, share a religion and speak one language, although examples undermining all of these criteria exist. A \*\*state \*\*needs a body of people in a certain geographic area over which it legitimately (ie without significant challenge) exerts a monopoly of force (ie it can police the people). The state needs people but does not have any requirements as to whether these people share anything other than living in the same area). Both states and nations exist but they often do not overlap; when they do it is called ‘a nation-state’. Many modern states approach this ideal-type but do not attain it as some element of national identity is contested or because part of the nation lives outside of the state. ---
**Author:** ![boilercake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ccd318/32.png) [@boilercake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boilercake)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/9 "2010-10-11T02:32:24Z")
Nope. Boots on the ground. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/10 "2010-10-11T02:33:34Z")
> [@ultraman100](#): > > > [@lazybratsche](#): > > > > Traditional nations won’t take kindly to people that live within their borders but claim to be citizen of an abstract online nation. It’ll be hard to maintain an online government and military of some sort when every citizen is still subject to the laws of their physical nation. And that “physical host nation” still has the power to cut off the internet access for these would-be nation founders. > > this is a nice response. a non-physical nation. could it work is the question. > > maybe one tiny island, with servers and a satellite dish would suffice for the physical element of this nation. ive heard of people buying islands for amounts of dollars one human can accumulate in less than one lifetime. Sure, you can buy an island. What happens when you try to claim citizenship on it? Especially if you don’t live there? Who’s going to recognize you? Why should they? This is one of the perennial questions on this Board, and predates it for the [print column](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/783/how-do-i-go-about-starting-my-own-country). The answer is always the same. In the real world, you’re not a nation unless other nations say you’re a nation. That’s not going to happen to an internet enclave at any time in my lifetime. Švejk, all the member nations of the United Nations are nations, even though by your definition they are states. ---
**Author:** ![ultraman100](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b77776/32.png) [@ultraman100](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultraman100)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/11 "2010-10-11T02:48:28Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > > [@athelas](#): > > > > And that last bit is the sticking point - all land on earth is claimed by _some_ nation or other. > > Actually there’s a [fair bit of Antarctica that is unclaimed](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territorial_claims_in_Antarctica#Unclaimed).. thx for that fact. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/12 "2010-10-11T02:54:37Z")
Agree the answer is “No.” But here’s the next best thing: [http://www.nationstates.net/](http://www.nationstates.net/) ---
**Author:** ![RadicalPi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/radicalpi/32/9806_2.png) [@RadicalPi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RadicalPi)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/13 "2010-10-11T02:55:22Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Traditional nations won’t take kindly to people that live within their borders but claim to be citizen of an abstract online nation. It’ll be hard to maintain an online government and military of some sort when every citizen is still subject to the laws of their physical nation. And that “physical host nation” still has the power to cut off the internet access for these would-be nation founders. Yeah. I was thinking about this just after I posted. I suppose, though, that if everyone wanted this to work, it could, but I think the end result would be a bit strange. Even today, too much of the regular life of the nation (or state, thanks to whoever brought that distinction up) requires physical links to just work. How would the online nation arrest people for crimes? manage taxes? and so on. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/14 "2010-10-11T03:25:44Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > Švejk, all the member nations of the United Nations are nations, even though by your definition they are states. You are wrong. They are \*not \*all nations, even though a lot of people commonly refer to them as such (ie as the collective body of people that find themselves citizens of a certain state). They _are_ all states - it’s just that when the UN came into existence the name ‘United States’ was already taken, even though it would have been far more appropriate. As an example of states that do not overlap with a nation, consider Russia (just as an example - there are many, many more cases) - many Russian citizens are not Russian, do not consider themselves to be Russian and are not seen by Russians as Russian. For this reason, the Russian language has two words for Russian: _russkiy_ and _rossiyskiy_, with the former referring to things pertaining to things and people ethnically and or linguistically Russian, the latter referring to things and people ‘civically’ Russian. The country is called ‘rossiyskaya federaciya’; the language is 'russkiy yazyk. ---
**Author:** ![UDS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecae2f/32.png) [@UDS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UDS)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/15 "2010-10-11T04:15:22Z")
Indeed. And, to give a converse example, Ireland was a nation, with a common history, culture, identity, etc, and recognised as such by non-Irish people, long before it was a state. ---
**Author:** ![Fubaya](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@Fubaya](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fubaya)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/16 "2010-10-11T04:49:22Z")
> [@ultraman100](#): > > maybe one tiny island, with servers and a satellite dish would suffice for the physical element of this nation. ive heard of people buying islands for amounts of dollars one human can accumulate in less than one lifetime. This is basically a [micronation](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micronation), the [Principality of Sealand](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand) being a good example. The problem with them is they don’t usually qualify as states and no one recognizes them as such. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/17 "2010-10-11T04:56:35Z")
**Svejk** is absolutely right. Nations are not the same things as states, aka countries. Nations are groups of people, not political entities. This isn’t even a question in the political sciences; it’s just a fact. Afghanistan is a state without a nation. Kurdistan is a nation without a state. The US is a state. The “American people” make up the nation. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Candyman74](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ad7895/32.png) [@Candyman74](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Candyman74)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/18 "2010-10-11T06:50:25Z")
> [@lazybratsche](#): > > Traditional nations won’t take kindly to people that live within their borders but claim to be citizen of an abstract online nation. Exactly. You’d be invited to depart for your nation. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/19 "2010-10-11T17:41:32Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > **Svejk** is absolutely right. Nations are not the same things as states, aka countries. Nations are groups of people, not political entities. This isn’t even a question in the political sciences; it’s just a fact. > > Afghanistan is a state without a nation. Kurdistan is a nation without a state. The US is a state. The “American people” make up the nation. > > Carry on. Sorry, but if there were a formal distinction it was abandoned in everyday English a long time ago. A huge amount of linguistic change took place after the 1960s, and the common usage pattern shifted. My 1987 Random House uses your definition of nation but my newer dictionaries (American Heritage, 1992, and Encarta, 2001) both gave as the primary definition of nation some variation of, “people in land under single government.” Dictionaries tend to lag changes in usage and the Random House was probably keeping to the first edition usage from the 1960s. There’s no harm in forcing the distinction, but today it’s pretty much like insisting that the U.S. isn’t a democracy, that it is only a republic. At one time the usages were distinct. Today the U.S. is a democracy and a nation, because that it is the common usage among good writers. ---
**Author:** ![Svejk\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea666f/32.png) [@Svejk\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Svejk_1)\ **Post date:** [October 11, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734/20 "2010-10-11T19:07:53Z")
Your analogy between the concepts of nation and democracy is false - this is not about an ideal-type and archaic usage; no political scientist would argue that the US is not a democracy because it does not look like ancient Greece. The definition of democracy has changed over time - and over much more time than just ‘since the sixties’. This is not the case for the concept of nation, which has been with us for a couple of centuries now and which has not undergone noticeable conceptual change in the way social scientists think of it. Of course, there is also a more colloquial usage, which is what you are referring to, which clearly exists but which is much less precise. Just because it is in a dictionary does not mean it is an adequate way of conceptualizing phenomena such as these. Dictionaries just reflect usage, even if it is outright false, and you should not rely on dictionaries to do the work that social scientists are supposed to do. If you want a more useful overview, I can recommend the [wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation)article which covers this ground quite nicely right in the introduction. To be sure (as should be clear from the wiki article as well as some other [dictionary entries](http://www.thefreedictionary.com/nation) (#3), if you insist on relying on those), the academic notion of nation that I am using is far from abandoned - it is not some sort of archaic sixties usage or something. Instead, it is still the standard among the very ‘good writers’ you mention and in the social sciences the distinction between nation and state I make is broadly accepted, common-place and uncontroversial, whereas the usage that you advocate is (rightly) seen as inaccurate and unsophisticated, since it does assumes incorrectly that every group of people that is considered to have a shared destiny (both by the group itself and by outsiders) has a government, and that every group that has a government necessarily has a shared destiny. Shared identity and shared government are not the same, and if you consider some of the examples offered above you will realize that the distinction is not just academic but affects real political life quite significantly. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-a-nation-online/556734.md?page=2)