# Creating 'human level' intelligence in animals (Uplift) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 8, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061 "2009-10-08T16:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/1 "2009-10-08T16:36:50Z")
Inspired by this thead: > **[Would it be possible to breed (not gene-engineer) a dog with near-human-level...](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=535137)** > > So far as I know, it has never really been tried. (Perhaps a dog breeder can correct me on that.) If you had enough time, and enough intelligent-for-a-dog breeding stock, would it be possible to produce a breed of dog that, in its general level of... Screw the limitations. Using anything within our ability and given enough time…could we ‘uplift’ (using Brin’s words) certain animals to human/near human intelligence levels? ---
**Author:** ![Smeghead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f1d935/32.png) [@Smeghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smeghead)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/2 "2009-10-08T16:45:16Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Screw the limitations. So, what you’re asking is that if we ignore anything that would stop us from doing something, could we do it? I’ll take a WAG and say “yes”. More seriously, I think we don’t really know. We don’t yet fully understand what it is about humans that gives us our intelligence, beyond a vague perception that it has to do with the complexity of our brain structure. Without a better understanding of our target, it’s hard to design a program to hit the target. I know enough about genetics to say that I wouldn’t attempt it via direct genetic engineering, if I were given the task. Again - far too much we don’t understand yet. I think our best bet would be to go with selective breeding and wait for the mutations to arise naturally. Given unlimited resources, I’d have vast numbers of breeding stock exposed to mutagens to speed up the process. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/3 "2009-10-08T16:48:51Z")
Why is it that we would want to do this? What benfit will we get in exchange for our vast commitment of time and resources? ---
**Author:** ![Lobohan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lobohan/32/79_2.png) [@Lobohan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lobohan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/4 "2009-10-08T16:54:37Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Why is it that we would want to do this? What benfit will we get in exchange for our vast commitment of time and resources? Not being alone in the universe? Also, furry-sex. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/5 "2009-10-08T17:03:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Why is it that we would want to do this? What benfit will we get in exchange for our vast commitment of time and resources? Because when the Galactics show up, we can point to our Uplift program as proof that we should be treated as Patrons, rather than being force-adopted as the client of some horrible species like the Jophur. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/6 "2009-10-08T17:06:06Z")
You can convince a normal dog to lick your naughty bits with just a smear of butter. I suspect an uplifted dog would be less easily persuaded. Thus, I submit that we cannot automatically expect to reap furry-sex as the fruit of our labors. ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/7 "2009-10-08T17:13:52Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Why is it that we would want to do this? What benfit will we get in exchange for our vast commitment of time and resources? If it became feasible to “Uplift” almost any species with a brain and a central nervous system, think about everything we can learn from them. About their instincts, their mating habits, their… their um… oh fuck it, who am I trying to kid? We’d enslave them and have them do our laundry. ---
**Author:** ![Saintly\_Loser](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saintly_loser/32/4045_2.png) [@Saintly\_Loser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saintly_Loser)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/8 "2009-10-08T17:22:23Z")
Didn’t someone make a movie about this? Something do with damned dirty apes, and I recall a scene with the Statue of Liberty at the end. . . ---
**Author:** ![cmyk](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmyk/32/3353_2.png) [@cmyk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmyk)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/9 "2009-10-08T17:27:09Z")
… yeh, but they blew it all up. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/10 "2009-10-08T18:11:55Z")
> [@Smeghead](#): > > So, what you’re asking is that if we ignore anything that would stop us from doing something, could we do it? I’ll take a WAG and say “yes”. The screw the limitations were like the self imposed no-genetic-engineering from the inspiring, linked thread. ---
**Author:** ![BlinkingDuck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/eada6e/32.png) [@BlinkingDuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlinkingDuck)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/11 "2009-10-08T18:13:03Z")
> [@Lemur866](#): > > Because when the Galactics show up, we can point to our Uplift program as proof that we should be treated as Patrons, rather than being force-adopted as the client of some horrible species like the Jophur. Well…YEAH! If it wasn’t for our uplifted dolphins and chimps…we’d be really screwed. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/12 "2009-10-08T19:01:07Z")
> [@cmyk](#): > > If it became feasible to “Uplift” almost any species with a brain and a central nervous system, think about everything we can learn from them. About their instincts, their mating habits, their… their um… oh fuck it, who am I trying to kid? We’d enslave them and have them do our laundry. Taking the first part of your post as the serious part… If you uplifted their intelligence, you’d probably not preserve their un-uplifted instincts. ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/13 "2009-10-08T19:24:09Z")
I believe that the point of life is to make more life, and the point of intelligence is to create more intelligence. We like to have other people to talk to. Who cares if the other people are people we made, and who don’t look like us? I mean, if we shouldn’t uplift animals, doesn’t that mean we shouldn’t try to create machine AI? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/14 "2009-10-08T19:51:09Z")
Have you exhausted the conversational possibilities with every human on Urth yet? ---
**Author:** ![Lightnin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lightnin/32/180_2.png) [@Lightnin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lightnin)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/15 "2009-10-08T19:54:12Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Have you exhausted the conversational possibilities with every human on Urth yet? Workin’ on it. That’s what the internet’s for. ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/16 "2009-10-08T20:01:41Z")
> [@Saintly\_Loser](#): > > Didn’t someone make a movie about this? Something do with damned dirty apes, and I recall a scene with the Statue of Liberty at the end. . . Yes, it was “Escape from New York”, right? ---
**Author:** ![moldybread](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ea924/32.png) [@moldybread](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moldybread)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/17 "2009-10-08T20:12:16Z")
“Planet of the Apes” ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/18 "2009-10-08T20:21:29Z")
I’d say yes. Adding intelligence in general is a good thing, in my opinion. But it should only be done with other changes, like extending lifespan, granting the ability to speak, and either giving them good hands or machines that can substitute for them. Just giving a dog human intelligence would just result in what would amount to a severely disabled person by human standards; no hands, can’t talk, and he or she won’t live very long. And they’d be smart enough to actualy realize how screwed they are. > [@John\_Mace](#): > > Taking the first part of your post as the serious part… If you uplifted their intelligence, you’d probably not preserve their un-uplifted instincts. I don’t see why not; humans have instincts after all. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/19 "2009-10-08T20:33:27Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > I don’t see why not; humans have instincts after all. I didn’t mean to imply that the uploaded animal wouldn’t have instincts, only that they would probably be different from the ones they had pre-upload. Not to mention you’re probably better off learning about an animal’s instincts by studying that animal objectively, not by asking it what its instincts are. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [October 8, 2009, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061/20 "2009-10-08T21:22:23Z")
> [@BlinkingDuck](#): > > Well…YEAH! If it wasn’t for our uplifted dolphins and chimps…we’d be really screwed. [Dolphins Evolve Opposable Thumbs: ‘Oh Shit!’ Says Humanity](http://www.theonion.com/content/node/28315) Stranger [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creating-human-level-intelligence-in-animals-uplift/513061.md?page=2)