# Creation vs. Evolution **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 27, 2003, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854 "2003-06-27T21:22:08Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![GodlessSkeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/5f9b8f/32.png) [@GodlessSkeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GodlessSkeptic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/121 "2003-07-02T10:26:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wake up call \* > \*\*The imagination of the “Faith People” proposes that the heavens and the world were formed by GOD. So what was before GOD –just a bunch of nothing? –And so what was before that? \*\* More importantly, what did an “all-loving” god do before there was anything to love?! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 11:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/122 "2003-07-02T11:09:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Why do you want to show us God’s love? \*\* I guess he really thinks you’d like it if you experienced it. Not a terrible sentiment. But (IMO) words are a rather imperfect tool for demonstrating _any_ kind of love. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/123 "2003-07-02T12:20:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > \*\*More importantly, what did an “all-loving” god do before there was anything to love?! \*\* Loved himself, of course! ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/124 "2003-07-02T12:26:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GodlessSkeptic \* > \*\*More importantly, what did an “all-loving” god do before there was anything to love?! \*\* One answer to this might be that he loved us anyway, given that time and space aren’t generally considered to be limitations - there are Bible verses to support this idea, if ‘support’ is the right word. ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/125 "2003-07-02T12:29:42Z")
I thought it was meaningless to talk about what happened “before” the universe existed. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/126 "2003-07-02T14:22:05Z")
Upon being asked what God was doing before he created the universe St. Augustine retorted, " He was busy creating Hell for people who ask questions like that!" Augustine would not have done well as a Doper. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 18, 2003, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/127 "2003-07-18T22:00:05Z")
I realize I’m resurrecting an old thread, but this thread went dormant while Nomadic\_One was out of town. Now that he’s back, I have a question: Are you or are you not going to warn your friend that he’s spreading lies? ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/128 "2003-07-19T03:04:00Z")
🙂 Ben your really into this arnt you. Well Im not sure if he is available to comment at this time. But I did talk to him about this thread and he is interested in reading it. 🙂 Dont worry I am sure you will have your chance to debate him to death too. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Alien2022](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@Alien2022](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien2022)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/129 "2003-07-19T03:19:47Z")
speaking of lies, can anyone point me in the direction of something to help refute the “missing link” dilemma, because im debating someone and they keep bringing it up. Id really like to shut it down… Thanks in advance… ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/130 "2003-07-19T03:48:52Z")
**Alien** : Try [http://www.talkorigins.org](http://www.talkorigins.org) [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-transitional.html) [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/) [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#pred4](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html#pred4) [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/punc-eq.html) Short answer. The fossil record is always going to be incomplete, but we do have very good “missing links” or transitional fossils. It is just every time an evolutionist claims a fossil is a missing link, the creationists shift their definitions. There will be no pleasing them, ever. I wish this whole subject would go away. It is really kind of pathetic from a scientific or a logical perspective. I really, really want the Texas Longhorns to win in football. But when they are down by 24 with 7 seconds left in the fourth quarter, I know when to call it over. No amount of team spirit, faith, or praying will be of any use. Creationism is down more than 24 with 7 seconds left. No amount of faith or prayer is ever going to make evolution go away. Just like religion has backed off of other scientific issues, it needs to toss in the towel against evolution. I hope with it goes the whole moronic idea of biblical literalism. Most world religions have had no problems with this. Even most sects of Christianity have backed off. It is just a small, predominantly American group of evangelical Christians who refuse to give up. Religion works very well for lots of people. The belief in God seems to make many people very happy. There is no reason why this love should be tempered because our histones are nearly identical to those of the cow, the elm tree, or _E. coli_. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/131 "2003-07-19T03:53:42Z")
The “missing link” is basically a canard. The fossil record is not exactly complete but many of the intermediate steps are known. [Here](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/mom/momevol.html) is some info on “missing link” arguments and [intermediate homonid fossils](http://talkorigins.org/faqs/homs/) from [Talkorigins.com](http://Talkorigins.com). Basically “missing link” is a God of the gaps argument. Whenever an intermediate species is found then the creationists say "aha, but what’s in between that and the _next_ one? It’s an infinite regression. ---
**Author:** ![Alien2022](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@Alien2022](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien2022)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/132 "2003-07-19T04:08:25Z")
Yes, thats exactly the problem. I already pointed the guy towards talkorigins, but he came back and said, ok but where are the transitions between those species. Have you guys heard of some argument that proves that blood clotting could never have evolved? the same guy brought up the argument, and I couldnt find anything anywhere on it. However, Id like to refute it if possible… ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/133 "2003-07-19T04:14:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*🙂 Ben your really into this arnt you. Well Im not sure if he is available to comment at this time. But I did talk to him about this thread and he is interested in reading it. 🙂 Dont worry I am sure you will have your chance to debate him to death too. 🙂 \*\* Funny, I thought that when I asked you offlist you indicated that you weren’t going to, on the grounds that you were leaving the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/134 "2003-07-19T04:33:51Z")
Re: proof of God’s love, the best way I’ve yet seen of doing that is not to say “GOD SAYS X” or “GOD SAYS Y” or “REPENT NOW OR FACE HAYULLL!!!” The best way is to live in such a way that you leave the earth better than you found it. Quiet, but deliberate, witness. One of the best witnessers on this board does it without quoting the Bible much at all, without talking at great length about God all the time, without interjecting all the time about religion. He does it by treating people with respect and love. If there were anyone who could successfully witness in every forum, he’s it:) ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/135 "2003-07-19T07:05:41Z")
> [@](#): > > Funny, I thought that when I asked you offlist you indicated that you weren’t going to, on the grounds that you were leaving the SDMB. …more of a leave of absence… I like that the peoples’ of this board have an intellectual capacity that is greater than a toaster…kinda hard to find on the internet these days… > [@](#): > > One of the best witnessers on this board does it without quoting the Bible much at all, without talking at great length about God all the time, without interjecting all the time about religion. He does it by treating people with respect and love. If there were anyone who could successfully witness in every forum, he’s it …I wouldnt call him quiet…he is outspoken at times… I wish he would try some issues like this one _wink wink_ sometimes… ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/136 "2003-07-19T07:07:08Z")
**Alien2022** The blood clotting cascade is one of the “irreducibly complex” systems held up by proponents of Intelligent Design, notably Michael Behe who wrote _Darwin’s Black Box_. They say that there is no way that a complex cascade which, at heart, performs one task, could have evolved independently. To summarize the blood clotting cascade, there are two major activation paths of blood clotting, which funnel into a common pathway. The pathway starts by activating proteases, which activate other proteases by cutting them. Eventually, thrombin (a protease) cleaves fibrinogen into fibrin. Fibrin forms blood clots. See this: [http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/blood-coagulation.html](http://www.indstate.edu/thcme/mwking/blood-coagulation.html) [http://www.genmapp.org/MAPPSet-Human/GenMAPP.org\_MAPPs/Other\_MAPPs/Hs\_Blood\_Clotting\_Cascade.htm](http://www.genmapp.org/MAPPSet-Human/GenMAPP.org_MAPPs/Other_MAPPs/Hs_Blood_Clotting_Cascade.htm) The rebuttal is easy. It is just layered complexity, which is pretty easy to explain evolutionarily and not “irreducible.” First, most of the cascade is composed of serine proteases (one protein family), which were mostly derived from duplications of digestive enzymes. Yeah, it is all tightly controlled and there now exists strict interregulation. But that is easy to explain with Darwin – there is a huge selection to make this pathway work right. Too much or too little clotting are both bad for fitness. Any novel mutations causing better regulation were likely to be kept. Also, mutations in less-dependent members of the chain are compatible with life. So evolution is still tinkering with this system. Around 1/190 Ashkenazi Jews have Factor XI (PTA) deficiency, which causes minor bleeding episodes and occasional protracted bleeding after surgical procedures. This is by no means the only one – the hemophilias and von Willebrand disease come to mind. [http://biocrs.biomed.brown.edu/Darwin/DI/Clotting.html](http://biocrs.biomed.brown.edu/Darwin/DI/Clotting.html) [http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb97.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/origins/postmonth/feb97.html) [http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=264900](http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/dispomim.cgi?id=264900) ---
**Author:** ![Nomadic\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/858c86/32.png) [@Nomadic\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nomadic_One)\ **Post date:** [July 19, 2003, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/137 "2003-07-19T07:21:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Funny, I thought that when I asked you offlist you indicated that you weren’t going to, on the grounds that you were leaving the SDMB. No I actually thoght alot about those emails and I am in the process of well, something I think you will enjoy. 🙂 Its all good. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 1:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/138 "2003-07-20T13:20:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Nomadic\_One \* > \*\*…I wouldnt call him quiet…he is outspoken at times… > > I wish he would try some issues like this one _wink wink_ sometimes… \*\* Why don’t you invite him to do so? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [July 20, 2003, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/139 "2003-07-20T13:57:33Z")
Nomadic\_One, earlier you told me that evolutionists cannot be real Christians. Do you believe that evolutionists who consider themselves to be Christians will go to hell? ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [July 21, 2003, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854/140 "2003-07-21T00:17:03Z")
**edwino** , re: difficulties or excess of ease in clotting, is there any evidence that either of those two indicates any other problem with the genetic formula of the person affected such that a reduced life span or expectancy is usual? If this is being put in a confusing way, I’m basically asking if there’s any evidence that too little or too much clotting is tied to any other abnormality/condition/etc. **Nomadic\_One** , what I meant by quiet is that he does not loudly proclaim his religous beliefs for all to see, and when he does post about them it is almost invariably (I think I remember once or twice in the Pit and elsewhere he was not as respectful, in theory, as he could have been, and it was utterly understandable and appropriate, IMO) in a respectful manner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-vs-evolution/184854.md?page=8)