# Creation with intelligence (Adam/Eve/angels/etc) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343 "2014-12-28T06:28:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/1 "2014-12-28T06:28:27Z")
This is an argument against Judaism/Islam/Christianity that I just thought of. I’m not sure if other people have thought of it. In the case of Adam, Eve and the angels, they were apparently created with a lot of intelligence - well except for the knowledge of good and evil in the case of Adam and Eve. They could speak well, etc. Then why don’t the humans created after them have the inborn ability to speak, etc? Instead they have to spend years learning things like that. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/2 "2014-12-28T06:32:02Z")
Because Adam and Eve is a fairy tale. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/3 "2014-12-28T06:50:21Z")
I don’t see this is a critical flaw - Adam, Eve and the various angels were created directly by God. Children are created by fucking. Of course, the real flaw in the story is that it’s entirely mythical. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/4 "2014-12-28T06:53:17Z")
Really, that’s all you find implausible about the story? ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/5 "2014-12-28T06:55:51Z")
I don’t see a flaw either, but for different reasons. Angels don’t enter into it. We’re not angels. As for babies not being able to talk right away, that would easily be explained by any creationist by the Fall. Adam and Eve experienced no pain and didn’t have to work in the garden. After the Fall, they are condemned to labor and so forth. Note also that a bunch of early Biblical figures were said to have lived centuries. Again, the idea is that humans were in a higher, better state in Eden and that we degraded after the Fall. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/6 "2014-12-28T07:39:48Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > I don’t see this is a critical flaw - Adam, Eve and the various angels were created directly by God. Children are created by fucking… God told them to multiply and fill the earth. He didn’t tell them to also teach their children how to talk. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 7:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/7 "2014-12-28T07:43:42Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I don’t see a flaw either, but for different reasons. > > Angels don’t enter into it. We’re not angels. > > As for babies not being able to talk right away, that would easily be explained by any creationist by the Fall. The things that the fall involves are said quite explicitly - e.g. thorns, the pain of childbirth, etc. Are you saying that if it wasn’t for the fall babies would have been born speaking properly? I doubt any creationist would say that so therefore it has nothing to do with the fall. > [@](#): > > Adam and Eve experienced no pain and didn’t have to work in the garden. After the Fall, they are condemned to labor and so forth. Note also that a bunch of early Biblical figures were said to have lived centuries. Again, the idea is that humans were in a higher, better state in Eden and that we degraded after the Fall. Adam and Eve passed down original sin and their knowledge of good and evil. I thought they’d also pass down their ability to speak. Also the tower of Babel story implies people have an inherent ability to speak which was changed to different languages. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/8 "2014-12-28T07:46:49Z")
God is supposed to be a great designer and people are created in his image. Apparently people receive a soul in conception. I think Christians would believe that babies instantly know a language when they get to heaven. God would do things for good reasons… why didn’t he make babies talk when they’re born - most other animals can walk, etc, at birth. If it was for the fall it is a very significant change that wasn’t mentioned. ---
**Author:** ![wedgehed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@wedgehed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wedgehed)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/9 "2014-12-28T07:47:57Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > God told them to multiply and fill the earth. He didn’t tell them to also teach their children how to talk. How many parents actually “teach” their children to talk? ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/10 "2014-12-28T07:48:29Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Really, that’s all you find implausible about the story? It’s just the latest problem I’ve found. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/11 "2014-12-28T07:49:49Z")
> [@wedgehed](#): > > How many parents actually “teach” their children to talk? They’d give praise and respond to the words and also try and correct what they’re trying to say. Also they might say “say Dadda” or point at something and say “what is that?” or get them to count or teach them a song, etc… ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 8:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/12 "2014-12-28T08:00:33Z")
BTW it just says that Adam was created out of the dust and had life breathed into him. I thought babies would go through a similar process. It doesn’t say that God treated Adam different and gave him the ability to speak so speaking is just a natural part of being alive. (like Eve and the talking snake) The snake could talk because it was a “crafty” animal. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 8:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/13 "2014-12-28T08:06:54Z")
If the fall is the reason babies don’t talk, what about Jesus? I thought he wasn’t really affected by the fall. I mean he didn’t inherit original sin… ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/14 "2014-12-28T08:07:17Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > The things that the fall involves are said quite explicitly - e.g. thorns, the pain of childbirth, etc. Are you saying that if it wasn’t for the fall babies would have been born speaking properly? I doubt any creationist would say that so therefore it has nothing to do with the fall. You must not be too familiar with fundamentalist creationists because they use the Fall to explain everything wrong with the world. They think [carnivores used to eat plants.](http://creation.com/the-carnivorous-nature-and-suffering-of-animals) Whether they would think babies not being born with language is a defect is up to debate, but if they did they would blame man’s sinful nature. ---
**Author:** ![Derleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Derleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Derleth)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/15 "2014-12-28T08:57:48Z")
One argument, the “Get A Life” school of thought, has spoken, so I’ll not repeat it. Another non-diegetic (that is, out of universe) perspective is, these stories (that is, the multiple original stories which were accreted into the creation story within Genesis) were made up by people whose knowledge of language acquisition started and ended with “only humans do it, therefore humans are special, therefore God” and so the stories didn’t go into how the only human in existence learned a language. Why _wouldn’t_ a human know how to talk? Birds know how to fly, fish know how to swim, humans know how to talk. The fanwank argument would be along the lines of “The wholly Holy breath is associated with Logos, the Word what moved across the face of the waters and passed the waters and split the waters, so therefore language was passed along with life itself” or thereabouts, probably with more hand-waving. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 9:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/16 "2014-12-28T09:25:55Z")
A theme of degeneration from previous generations is a fairly common idea in Christian theology, like the idea that human lifespans have gotten much shorter since the days of the Old Testament. So “Adam and Eve and their immediate descendents were just that much smarter” would fit right in. Plus of course one could simply say that the fruit of the tree of knowledge gave them that knowledge too. Or that God created them as adults with (some) adult level skills, including language. > [@JohnClay](#): > > The things that the fall involves are said quite explicitly - e.g. thorns, the pain of childbirth, etc. Are you saying that if it wasn’t for the fall babies would have been born speaking properly? I’ve generally heard it claimed that with no Fall they wouldn’t have had children at all. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 10:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/17 "2014-12-28T10:09:32Z")
People do have the inborn ability and tendency to speak and communicate. Talking came from somewhere, after all. I don’t know if any creationists think that Adam and Eve were necessarily speaking some kind of developed (Hebrew?) dialect in Eden. “This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh; she shall be called ‘woman,’ for she was taken out of man” could just be an infallible translation of Adam grunting. ETA: The notion of humans degrading in various ways since the time of Adam is present in Islamic theology. For example, Adam is said to have been around 60 cubits tall. Islam does not have original sin. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 10:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/18 "2014-12-28T10:26:03Z")
Yeah, I think the affinity for language is built into the structure of our brains, which is coded for in our DNA, which is in fact present from conception. I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that children raised in the company of others, none of whom were ever exposed to any spoken language, would spontaneously develop their own idiosyncratic way of speaking to each other, even if it was closer to something like a chicken’s vocabulary of squaks. Don’t believe me? Test it! ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/19 "2014-12-28T11:03:46Z")
> [@marshmallow](#): > > You must not be too familiar with fundamentalist creationists because they use the Fall to explain everything wrong with the world. They think [carnivores used to eat plants.](http://creation.com/the-carnivorous-nature-and-suffering-of-animals) I used to be a fundamentalist creationist until I was about 18! Notice how many Bible verses they use to support their view. Heaps! > [@](#): > > Whether they would think babies not being born with language is a defect is up to debate, but if they did they would blame man’s sinful nature. I just talked to a senior pastor about it and he thinks that pre-fall babies wouldn’t be able to talk - he thinks it is a Biblical concept for the babies to have to learn. (I think that Adam and Eve should have learnt like babies - then God the Father would be more of a father) ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/20 "2014-12-28T11:15:08Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > A theme of degeneration from previous generations is a fairly common idea in Christian theology, like the idea that human lifespans have gotten much shorter since the days of the Old Testament. If you look at [![](http://www.biblechronology.org/charts/Longevity2.jpg) ](http://www.biblechronology.org/charts/Longevity2.jpg) Before the flood the lifespans are 800-950 years then after the Flood it slowly reduces to about 120 years… Genesis 6:3 says "Then the LORD said, “My Spirit will not contend with humans forever, for they are mortal; their days will be a hundred and twenty years.” > **[Oldest people](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oldest_people#Verified_oldest_living_men_.28over_110_years.29)** > > This is a list of tables of the oldest people in the world in ordinal ranks. To avoid including false or unconfirmed claims of old age, names here are restricted to those people whose ages have been validated by an international body dealing in longevity research, such as the Gerontology Research Group or Guinness World Records, and others who have otherwise been reliably sourced. > The longest documented and verified human lifespan is that of Jeanne Calment of France, a woman who lived to a... It seems that someone has lived to 122 though. > [@](#): > > So “Adam and Eve and their immediate descendents were just that much smarter” would fit right in. Actually they didn’t have knowledge of nakedness or good and evil so they weren’t particularly intelligent. The intelligence at creation/birth doesn’t necessarily mean that they’re more intelligent after several years… in fact many other animals act far more intelligently than a newborn human but humans still end up being more intelligent. > [@](#): > > Plus of course one could simply say that the fruit of the tree of knowledge gave them that knowledge too. It isn’t just “the tree of knowledge” it is the “tree of knowledge of good and evil”. > [@](#): > > Or that God created them as adults with (some) adult level skills, including language. If he had made babies work in a similar way raising them would be FAR easier… > [@](#): > > I’ve generally heard it claimed that with no Fall they wouldn’t have had children at all. No Genesis 1:27-28a says: **So God created humans to be like himself; he made men and women. God gave them his blessing and said: Have a lot of children! Fill the earth with people** I’ve heard a creationist say that they’d stop having children once the earth is full and that makes sense. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343.md?page=2)