# Creation with intelligence (Adam/Eve/angels/etc) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2014, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343 "2014-12-28T06:28:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/21 "2014-12-28T11:21:32Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > …I’ve generally heard it claimed that with no Fall they wouldn’t have had children at all. On the other hand: Matthew 22:30 “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.” ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/22 "2014-12-28T11:33:30Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Yeah, I think the affinity for language is built into the structure of our brains, which is coded for in our DNA, which is in fact present from conception. I’d bet dollars to doughnuts that children raised in the company of others, none of whom were ever exposed to any spoken language, would spontaneously develop their own idiosyncratic way of speaking to each other, even if it was closer to something like a chicken’s vocabulary of squaks. Don’t believe me? Test it! > **[Feral child](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feral_child)** > > A feral child (also called wild child) is a young individual who has lived isolated from human contact from a very young age, with little or no experience of human care, social behavior, or language. Such children lack the basics of primary and secondary socialization. The term is used to refer to children who have suffered severe abuse or trauma before being abandoned or running away. They are sometimes the subjects of folklore and legends, often portrayed as having been raised by animals. Wh Fe... I learnt about this at university… I think it was part of an artificial intelligence subject. **Feral children lack the basic social skills that are normally learned in the process of enculturation. For example, they may be unable to learn to use a toilet, have trouble learning to walk upright after walking on fours all their life, and display a complete lack of interest in the human activity around them. They often seem mentally impaired and have almost insurmountable trouble learning a human language. The impaired ability to learn a natural language after having been isolated for so many years is often attributed to the existence of a critical period for language learning, and taken as evidence in favor of the critical period hypothesis.** BTW I’ve heard that humans usually create systems of grammar with their language while apes have terrible grammar with their languages (e.g. sign language) But knowing language right from birth would make raising babies far easier and less awkward. With language they would have reasonable intelligence while current infants demonstrate virtually no intelligence. Well they can imitate things a bit, etc. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/23 "2014-12-28T11:35:55Z")
> [@nani](#): > > People do have the inborn ability and tendency to speak and communicate… Obviously otherwise it would take far longer to learn languages. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/24 "2014-12-28T13:00:32Z")
This discussion is related to the creationist Omphalos Hypothesis -which is the idea that God created things in their mature, functional form; so oak trees were created as mature trees with growth rings etc, not created as acorns needing to grow; Adam and Eve had hair, fingernails, belly buttons etc. The argument is centuries old, but has recently been revived and brushed off as a putative explanation to the visibility of distant stars (if the universe was as young as YECs claim, we would not be able to see astronomical objects more than a few thousand light years distand) ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/25 "2014-12-28T18:28:24Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > It isn’t just “the tree of knowledge” it is the “tree of knowledge of good and evil”. _I_ know that, but the people pushing creationism are likely to either not know or not care. > [@JohnClay](#): > > No Genesis 1:27-28a says: > **So God created humans to be like himself; he made men and women. God gave them his blessing and said: Have a lot of children! Fill the earth with people** Doesn’t matter, believers ignore inconvenient Biblical passages all the time. And “sinless Adam and Eve would never have had children” is consistent with the “sex is sin” viewpoint common among Christians, as well as the idea that childbirth is a punishment upon women for the sin of Eve. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2014, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/26 "2014-12-28T18:40:23Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > God told them to multiply and fill the earth. He didn’t tell them to also teach their children how to talk. So they’re English? (show tune reference) ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/27 "2014-12-29T01:44:05Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > _I_ know that, but the people pushing creationism are likely to either not know or not care. Can you find any evidence that creationists think that that tree gave other knowledge besides that of good and evil? When I was a creationist I didn’t think that. > [@](#): > > Doesn’t matter, believers ignore inconvenient Biblical passages all the time. And “sinless Adam and Eve would never have had children” is consistent with the “sex is sin” viewpoint common among Christians, as well as the idea that childbirth is a punishment upon women for the sin of Eve. I’ve only heard that sex is a gift from God and that only sex outside of marriage is a sin. Where is the evidence that sex in general is a sin? Also it says that the pain of childbirth is the punishment, not childbirth. BTW “Population: If Adam and Eve had never sinned, wouldn’t man have over populated the planet?” > **[POPULATION: If Adam and Eve had never sinned, wouldn’t man have over...](https://askjohnmackay.com/population-adam-eve-never-sinned-man-over-populated-planet/)** > > How is human population really controlled? It doesn’t say that they would have initially had no children. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/28 "2014-12-29T01:46:52Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > This discussion is related to the creationist Omphalos Hypothesis -which is the idea that God created things in their mature, functional form; so oak trees were created as mature trees with growth rings etc, not created as acorns needing to grow; Adam and Eve had hair, fingernails, belly buttons etc. > > The argument is centuries old, but has recently been revived and brushed off as a putative explanation to the visibility of distant stars (if the universe was as young as YECs claim, we would not be able to see astronomical objects more than a few thousand light years distand) Thanks that is helpful. Though Answers in Genesis doesn’t think that they had belly buttons… > **[Did Adam Have a Belly-Button?](https://answersingenesis.org/adam-and-eve/did-adam-have-a-belly-button/)** > > Did Adam have a belly-button? I believe we really have an answer to that, and we can say, 'No — Adam didn't. Neither did Eve.' > **[Did Adam and Eve Have Bellybuttons?](https://answersingenesis.org/kids/adam-and-eve/did-adam-and-eve-have-bellybuttons/)** > > Did Adam and Eve Have Bellybuttons? ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/29 "2014-12-29T02:07:24Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > Obviously otherwise it would take far longer to learn languages. Was the question of what language Adam and Eve spoke something that came up among creationists you knew/know? I’m curious if there is a belief that they spoke in the language and dialect of Genesis’ original writers. ‘Perfect’ translations are not unknown in Abrahamic religious traditions. In Islam, the Qur’an quotes past prophets like Moses, although Moses most likely did not speak Qur’anic Arabic (assuming here that Moses existed). I’m not familiar enough to comment on Jewish scholarly takes on this question, but I’d be very surprised if it didn’t come up. Jews pioneered rigorous analyses of scripture long before the discipline arose among European Christians. ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/30 "2014-12-29T02:29:02Z")
Even without using The Fall as an argument, it’s no problem. Adam and Eve were created\* as fully grown humans and fully functional. I can’t imagine Adam not knowing how to walk or eat by himslef. However Adam and Eve are a one-shot deal. All other humans came through natural means and had to grow and develop. \*As a Catholic I don’t have to believe in the literal mud/rib thingy. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/31 "2014-12-29T06:26:41Z")
But did they have navels? ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 6:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/32 "2014-12-29T06:50:04Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > But did they have navels? See [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18009977&postcount=28](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18009977&postcount=28) ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/33 "2014-12-29T06:58:10Z")
> [@nani](#): > > Was the question of what language Adam and Eve spoke something that came up among creationists you knew/know? > **[Divine language](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_language#Abrahamic_traditions)** > > Divine language, the language of the gods, or, in monotheism, the language of God (or angels), is the concept of a mystical or divine proto-language, which predates and supersedes human speech. > In Judaism and Christianity, it is unclear whether the language used by God to address Adam was the language of Adam, who as name-giver (Genesis 2:19) used it to name all living things, or if it was a different divine language. In Islam, Arabic is the language in which God revealed the final revelation. I think they would think God, Adam, Eve and the snake would speak Hebrew though when I think about it in the Babel story either the Hebrew language was lost or God’s people kept on speaking it. BTW I think in the early Bible the vowels weren’t written and God’s name was YHWH (the Hebrew form of that). His name wasn’t spoken so people aren’t sure how to pronounce God’s name. Some thought it was Jehovah while more recently they think it is “Yahweh”. BTW some Jews write “G-d”. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 7:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/34 "2014-12-29T07:09:54Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Even without using The Fall as an argument, it’s no problem. > Adam and Eve were created\* as fully grown humans and fully functional. Though they didn’t have knowledge of good and evil - or shame for nakedness which is the same kind of thing. > [@](#): > > I can’t imagine Adam not knowing how to walk or eat by himself. However Adam and Eve are a one-shot deal. All other humans came through natural means and had to grow and develop. Yes a baby would start off small and grow but why couldn’t they start off with the language skills of a child? Babies that go to heaven apparently instantly learn language (and grow up). It would be MUCH easier to follow’s God command to multiply and fill the earth if babies could initially talk. Some other mammals can walk soon after birth… If people were to design AI they would usually want it to start off with basic language capabilities. Why did God “design” babies so that they began with virtually no language? If people have to grow and develop language why don’t people just gradually receive it automatically? Why do they need to learn it? God could have put Hebrew or something into our DNA… but instead we have hardly any language related things in our DNA - that suggests we weren’t designed by a perfect designer. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2014, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/35 "2014-12-29T17:42:45Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > [Divine language - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_language#Abrahamic_traditions) > I think they would think God, Adam, Eve and the snake would speak Hebrew though when I think about it in the Babel story either the Hebrew language was lost or God’s people kept on speaking it. BTW I think in the early Bible the vowels weren’t written and God’s name was YHWH (the Hebrew form of that). His name wasn’t spoken so people aren’t sure how to pronounce God’s name. Some thought it was Jehovah while more recently they think it is “Yahweh”. BTW some Jews write “G-d”. All classical Hebrew is written without vowels. The question of how to properly pronounce the Name is too big and complicated for me to get into. Writing G-d is unrelated to either of these. In Jewish law and custom, anything with the Name written on it is holy text. Holy text cannot touch the ground. It cannot be thrown out but only disposed of in a special ceremony. To avoid all the trouble, most Jews just write G-d. This avoids creating sacred text. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/36 "2014-12-30T00:09:58Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > …The question of how to properly pronounce the Name is too big and complicated for me to get into. It would be good to get extra info about that - e.g. a link or something. > [@](#): > > Writing G-d is unrelated to either of these. In Jewish law and custom, anything with the Name written on it is holy text. Holy text cannot touch the ground. It cannot be thrown out but only disposed of in a special ceremony. To avoid all the trouble, most Jews just write G-d. This avoids creating sacred text. Thanks that was interesting. ---
**Author:** ![slowlearner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@slowlearner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/slowlearner)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/37 "2014-12-30T03:04:37Z")
Snakes had legs and could talk. ---
**Author:** ![JohnClay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/c37758/32.png) [@JohnClay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnClay)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/38 "2014-12-30T15:11:53Z")
> [@slowlearner](#): > > Snakes had legs and could talk. Even “evolutionists” belive that the ancestors of snakes had legs… 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/39 "2014-12-30T21:20:27Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > It would be good to get extra info about that - e.g. a link or something… I am not an Industrial Strength Jew, so the following may contain errors or omissions. According to some historians, the Name was pronounced for a long period. Then, the pronunciation was lost. According to others, the pronunciation of the Name was always THE great and holy secret of Judaism. The High Priest was one of the few, or possibly the only one, to know it. He said the Name only on Yom Kippur and only in the Holy Of Holies before the Ark. According to Jewish folklore, saying the Name could literally work miracles. Using the Name one could make golems, predict the future etc. But, pronouncing the Name incorrectly was generally held to make demons devour your soul and other nasty things happen. Minor Spoiler- The film Warlock holds that pronouncing the Name backwards would uncreate the universe. I’ve never had a scholar confirm this, but it does fit with what I know of the Name. Rather than attempt to pronounce the Name, we’re taught to say “Adonai”. ---
**Author:** ![nani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/58956e/32.png) [@nani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nani)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2014, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343/40 "2014-12-30T21:31:37Z")
> [@JohnClay](#): > > [Divine language - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_language#Abrahamic_traditions) > I think they would think God, Adam, Eve and the snake would speak Hebrew though when I think about it in the Babel story either the Hebrew language was lost or God’s people kept on speaking it. BTW I think in the early Bible the vowels weren’t written and God’s name was YHWH (the Hebrew form of that). His name wasn’t spoken so people aren’t sure how to pronounce God’s name. Some thought it was Jehovah while more recently they think it is “Yahweh”. BTW some Jews write “G-d”. Thanks. The link to Adamic languages from that article was interesting. There are some really interesting parallels between the Brahmanic understandings of Veda and Jewish understandings of Torah, in terms of what they are, conceptually. Words have power not just because of their meanings, but also in their production, in their sound and being and so on. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creation-with-intelligence-adam-eve-angels-etc/708343.md?page=3)