# Creationism in Hawaii?! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 1, 2001, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451 "2001-08-01T07:59:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![HubZilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ccd318/32.png) [@HubZilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HubZilla)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/1 "2001-08-01T07:59:45Z")
The Hawaii Dept of Education may allow theories of origins other than evolution (read: creationism) to be taught: [http://starbulletin.com/2001/07/27/news/story1.html](http://starbulletin.com/2001/07/27/news/story1.html) [http://starbulletin.com/2001/07/28/news/story2.html](http://starbulletin.com/2001/07/28/news/story2.html) It’s a little ironic, since Hawaii is a remote group of islands in the Pacific. It has so much evidence of evolution and natural selection. However, all hope is not lost, here are the letters to the editor. Nearly all are opposing creationism (so far): [http://starbulletin.com/2001/07/29/editorial/letters.html](http://starbulletin.com/2001/07/29/editorial/letters.html) My favorite comment: “Since this is Hawaii, I would suggest that Hawaiian, Chinese, Korean, Indian, Japanese and Filipino mythologies also be presented as alternate theories. Why should Christianity (fundamentalist Christianity at that) be specially privileged?” It goes up for vote on Thursday. Let’s hope we’re not another Kansas. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/2 "2001-08-01T11:25:19Z")
I’m considering inventing my own cockamamey (however the heck you spell that… damn, I love Old-Timer Talk!) “theory of origin”. It will include a discourse on how all life originated when the sun and Neptune were dating, and the sun ejaculated prematurely and spoiled the mood. The sun’s sperm landed on Earth, and eventually some space gnomes came along and, with the wave of their magic spleens, turned it into life as we know it. Martians (from Mars, no less) were so intrigued by this that they came to Earth and built massive statues to commemorate the event of life appearing on Earth. However, Haley’s comet, having gotten drunk the night before, flew past and barfed on Earth, causing massive Earthquakes that cause the Martian-built statues to collapse. These collapsed statues became the dinosaur bones that we all know and love. Meanwhile, the sun was still embarrassed over his premature ejaculation. In fact, he was so embarrassed that he burst into flames… which is why he’s a gigantic orb of light. His sweat became the stars that we see in the sky, and they reflect the sunlight… they only LOOK like they’re billions of lightyears away. There. That’s how stuff came to be. Now I insist that this be taught in classrooms along with Creationism and Evolution, both of which are obviously and blatantly false. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 1, 2001, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/3 "2001-08-01T23:46:44Z")
You know, I think it’s bad enough that U.S. students are so amazingly ignorant about science as it is; do we _really_ need to devote time in _science_ classrooms, taking time away from, you know, _science_, to this sort of thing? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/4 "2001-08-02T00:15:24Z")
You want to read Louisiana’s [reasoning?](http://www.laweekly.com/ink/01/26/news-wertheim.shtml) > [@](#): > > **"Be it resolved that the Legislature of Louisiana does hereby deplore all instances and ideologies of racism, and does hereby reject the core concepts of Darwinist ideology that certain races and classes of humans are inherently superior to others," reads a resolution approved by the state’s House Education Committee on May 1.** Eugenie Scott, executive director of the National Center for Science Education, a nonprofit organization devoted to fighting creationism in American schools, is quoted thusly: > [@](#): > > **"Every time I do an interview on a station with a predominantly black listenership, someone invariably calls in and asks, ‘Well why should our kids learn evolution? Evolution is just the source of racism.’"** Funny, I thought it was ignorance. And here’s an eye-opener: > [@](#): > > **"The great problem of civilization is to secure a relative increase of the valuable as compared with the less valuable or noxious elements in the population . . . The problem cannot be met unless we give full consideration to the immense influence of heredity."** That was Theodore Roosevelt in 1913. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/5 "2001-08-02T02:33:49Z")
They felt that science is excluding God in the equation, and they will not stand for it. ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/6 "2001-08-02T02:44:02Z")
Sure they did, **capacitor** , that’s why they attack evolution and not atomic theory, or gravity, or chemistry, etc., etc., _ad infinitum_. God is not used as an explanation in those sciences, but somehow that doesn’t seem to matter. Would you care to address their reasoning for focusing solely on evolution? ---
**Author:** ![Icerigger](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/icerigger/32/432_2.png) [@Icerigger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Icerigger)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/7 "2001-08-02T03:07:36Z")
Is this nonsense happening in other countries? I wonder if editorials in foreign papers shake their heads at the irrationality gripping our country. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/8 "2001-08-02T03:13:55Z")
WHEREAS the Einsteinian Theory of Relativity may lead the citizens of this state into a belief in moral relativism, and WHEREAS moral relativism may lead to the abandonment of traditional American values, the undermining of the family unit, and the contamination of our precious bodily fluids by Communist subversives, THEREFORE the equation E = mc[sup]2[/sup] is hereby amended to read E/God = mc[sup]2[/sup]/God within the confines of this state. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/9 "2001-08-02T03:52:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > **E/God = mc[sup]2[/sup]/God** I thought dividing by zero was a mathematical no-no… ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 4:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/10 "2001-08-02T04:35:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Darwin’s Finch \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > > **E/God = mc[sup]2[/sup]/God** > > I thought dividing by zero was a mathematical no-no… \*\* If I read this correctly, as usual, God cancels Himself out of the equation. If only it were that easy to do with most of society in general. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/11 "2001-08-02T04:38:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Icerigger \* > \*\*Is this nonsense happening in other countries? \*\* Unfortunately it is happening and has happened in other countries. I was forecd to endure my year 11 multi-science teacher reading from Genesis. He could not however answer any questions not directly relating to the text. So asking whether these were meant to be literal or figurative days was a no-no. I’m a creationist, as Jab1 will attest, but I still can’t abide seeing creationism taught in science classes. If poloticians want kids to study that stuff they should make the study of philosophy compulsory. Is retaining science classes for studying science really such a bad thing? > [@](#): > > I wonder if editorials in foreign papers shake their heads at the irrationality gripping our country Well, to be perfectly honest unless a school shooting or a fundie brings it to our attention US education policy doesn’t even rate a mention in Australian newspapers. You want to teach your kids about space-gnomes with genesis-spleens, that’s your business. ---
**Author:** ![Sagasumono](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Sagasumono](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sagasumono)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/12 "2001-08-02T05:46:18Z")
Well,although I would like to put my own two cents in about why cretionisim concepts shoud be taught, being this is Straight Dope, I havent had one of my opionions respected yet. But anyways I actullay agree with the comment about having many other beliefs other than evolution taught in schools. After all I live in Hawaii myself. A funny and ironic thing is that the Hawaiian story of creationisim is an evoultion theroy,that the people evolved from the sea. Since there is evedince for both creationisim (including ones other than biblical) and proof for some evolution theroies as well, why not present both? I think the main point of the argument is not religion,but that sceintific teaching shoudn’t be one sided. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/13 "2001-08-02T06:09:09Z")
Sagasumono, I think that most, if not all, of the posters here agree with your notion that scientific teaching shouldn’t be one-sided. What you’re going to have to do a lot of work on is convincing even me, a self-professed creationist, that creationism is scientific. If it isn’t scientific I can’t understand why it should be taught as science. I know someone else is going to ask this, so I’ll save them the time: can you possibly trot out your evidence for creationism? In this instance scientific evidence would be particularly relevant to the debate. As for not respecting your opinion, well that does happen. I don’t believe people are obliged to respect your opinion, you have to give them reason to respect it. God knows I’ve had a few of mine badly trashed and (I hope) caused a few people to develop more respect for others. Refusing to express them certainly won’t result in anyone having more respect for your opinions or banish our ignorance of what they might be. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/14 "2001-08-02T06:13:36Z")
What evidence for creationism is there? And for that matter, “creationism” in what sense? “Creationism” in the sense of the idea that the Universe has a Creator? That’s a religious and philosophical concept; as a religious concept, it doesn’t belong in public schools; as a philosophical one, it doesn’t belong in _science_ courses anywhere. “Creationism” in the sense that human beings were specially created, and have an origin which is completely different from other animals, including apes? That _is_ a scientific concept–or at any rate, it can be formulated as one–it just happens to be a scientific concept which has been disproven, like phlogiston or geocentrism. Of course, there are people who still believe there is [evidence for geocentrism](http://www.biblicalastronomer.org/geocentricity/whygeo.htm). Shall we give their views “equal time” too? ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/15 "2001-08-02T06:16:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Gaspode \* > I know someone else is going to ask this, so I’ll save them the time: can you possibly trot out your evidence for creationism? In this instance scientific evidence would be particularly relevant to the debate. Oy! He’s a prophet! 😃 ---
**Author:** ![The\_Mick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/838e76/32.png) [@The\_Mick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Mick)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/16 "2001-08-02T06:34:32Z")
I want Norse creation theories taught in my school! I always liked that stuff. But in my part of town, they’d probably teach Mayan and Incan theories. But why stop there? Any of them could be true, any of the theories could be false. Science could be wrong, and the Cherokee beliefs are the truth. No one knows. And why couldn’t God have planned for evolution to happen? Maybe we’re his gigantic science project. Or maybe we’re MTV’s Real World to him. He just watches us and laughs while we scamper around. ---
**Author:** ![Slithy\_Tove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slithy_tove/32/18248_2.png) [@Slithy\_Tove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slithy_Tove)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 6:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/17 "2001-08-02T06:54:12Z")
Blasted misionaries! Isn’t it enough that you imposed your own version of sex-positions and real estate convents upon these poor benighted savages - now your crack-pot creation theories must be observed as well! I propose that “kill-Haole” day be changed to “Ignore Haole’s stupid creation myth” day (less stress to the poor white kids at McKinley High, anyway). ---
**Author:** ![Geek\_Mecha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecae2f/32.png) [@Geek\_Mecha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Geek_Mecha)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/18 "2001-08-02T13:27:05Z")
[hijack] Aw, c’mon, **Silthy** , there aren’t many white kids at MHS to begin with. Let’s just leave 'em alone… [/hijack] The BOE votes on the proposed standards tonight: [http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/02/ln/ln01a.html](http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/02/ln/ln01a.html) ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/19 "2001-08-02T17:54:30Z")
From **AudreyK** ’s link: > [@](#): > > Board member Denise Matsumoto suggested the proposal at a committee meeting last Thursday. It would emphasize biological evolution as a theory among theories. It also would require that high school students be taught that there are multiple theories of origin. So, when did Genesis become a _theory_ of origin? It’s very simple: Evolution is a theory (and a fact…). The _only_ alternative to evolution is Special Creation. Either organisms _evolved_, or they were _created_. And only _one_ of these is a _theory_, the other is a _belief_. Evolution is _not_ a “theory among theories”, for cryin’ out loud! ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2001, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451/20 "2001-08-02T19:30:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AudreyK \* > \*\*The BOE votes on the proposed standards tonight: [http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/02/ln/ln01a.html](http://the.honoluluadvertiser.com/article/2001/Aug/02/ln/ln01a.html) \*\* Let us pray that they vote against creationism. 😃 [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-in-hawaii/74451.md?page=2)