# Creationism, Intelligent Design, and "Equal Time" in Public Schools **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 13, 2003, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344 "2003-09-13T04:37:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ammo52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ammo52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ammo52)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/41 "2003-09-15T14:15:41Z")
Just last night, while helping my eighth-grader with her Science homework, I was dismayed to see how pervasive the creationist/ID influence is, and the extent to which subtle little “roadblocks” are put between young minds and the truths of the origins of life – even in a life science class. Her worksheet was, essentially, full of true/false questions, but it was couched in a very peculiar way: statements such as “Life evolved from earlier, less advanced forms of life” and “The earth is approximately 4.6 billion years old” were to be checked off IF they “matched the information printed in the textbook.”:rolleyes: In other words, calling them “true”, and asking the children to assert this in writing, just seems to go one step farther than the pinheads who keep trying to shove ID into the science class are willing to go. So, we’re left with the charade of a watered-down worksheet purporting to “teach evolution” but in reality we’ve let the theists who dominate the school boards turn it into a “matching game” in which all we’re getting the kids to agree to is that the statement on the paper matches the statement in the book. Anything to avoid taking that next, logical, step, I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/42 "2003-09-15T14:22:15Z")
Not that it makes a lot of difference to anyone but me, but Eureka is a SHE. ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/43 "2003-09-15T14:54:52Z")
I loath the idea that religious fundamentalists are continually trying to push religion into public schools one way or another. The ID/C is just their most likely way to get it to happen. ID isn’t science, and if the idea is to promote a pluratlity, than why aren’t they pushing for other creation stories to be taught as well? OTOH, when I was a kid I would have loved to have learned ID. Imagine the tests, every answer would be “It’s the way that God wanted it”. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/44 "2003-09-15T15:07:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eureka \* > \*\*And finally, I believe in a God who could have created dead stars just for fun \*\* All you have to do is read the Old Testament in order to realize that God is really just a fun loving old guy. ---
**Author:** ![SentientMeat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/43a26b/32.png) [@SentientMeat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SentientMeat)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/45 "2003-09-15T15:11:23Z")
As if you need to be told, the existence of a _debate_ over whether the Earth is thousands or billions of years old, or whether evolution provides a detailed and durable explanation of the fossil record , is why the rest of the world thinks that the US is a little _odd_. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/46 "2003-09-15T15:33:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David Simmons \* > \*\*All you have to do is read the Old Testament in order to realize that God is really just a fun loving old guy. \*\* Actually, IIRC, isn’t there a few verses that imply God was Satan? 2Samuel 24:1 and 1Chronicles 21:1 ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/47 "2003-09-15T15:46:29Z")
A few more examples of “intelligent” design: The rabbit’s digestive system. > [@](#): > > Cecal pellets are mostly digested food that rabbits defecate and subsequently reingest; a process known as Coprophagia. Usually a rabbit will eat the pellets straight from their anus, and as such, many people do not know of this aspect of a rabbit’s diet. They are often referred to as “night pellets” or “night droppings”, since the rabbits tend to eat them a few hours after their evening meal. > > Cecal pellets are soft, smelly, clumpy feces, and are a rabbit’s only supply of Vitamin B12. Due to the design of the rabbit’s digestive system, they cannot extract some vitamins and minerals directly from their food. At the end of their digestive system is an area called the cecum where cellulose and other plant fibers are broken down and ferment. After they have been broken down and passed, a rabbit’s digestive system can finally extract the vitamins from them. > **[Rabbit](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rabbit)** > > Rabbits, also known as bunnies or bunny rabbits, are small mammals in the family Leporidae (along with the hare) of the order Lagomorpha (along with the pika). Oryctolagus cuniculus includes the European rabbit species and its descendants, the world's 305 breeds of domestic rabbit. Sylvilagus includes 13 wild rabbit species, among them the seven types of cottontail. The European rabbit, which has been introduced on every continent except Antarctica, is familiar throughout the world as a wild ... Wouldn’t an INTELLIGENT designer put the cecum higher up in the rabbit’s digestive system? So it wouldn’t have to eat it’s own shit? ---
**Author:** ![Revtim](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/revtim/32/1042_2.png) [@Revtim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revtim)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/48 "2003-09-15T15:47:47Z")
OK just one more example. I was gonna do the Panda’s thumb but forgot to. ---
**Author:** ![ammo52](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/73ab20/32.png) [@ammo52](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ammo52)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/49 "2003-09-15T16:08:25Z")
> [@](#): > > Wouldn’t an INTELLIGENT designer put the cecum higher up in the rabbit’s digestive system? So it wouldn’t have to eat it’s own shit? Carrying that logic farther, why would an INTELLIGENT designer engineer my Golden Retriever to enthusiastically eat the rabbit droppings that he encounters in his back yard? Although, I guess I can see the same guy who “makes dead stars just for fun” and faking us all out with the Grand Canyon getting a certain kick out of watching dogs eat rabbit poop… ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/50 "2003-09-15T16:16:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Eureka \* > \*\*Not that it makes a lot of difference to anyone but me, but Eureka is a SHE. \*\* This is a highly contentious issue, and one that is heavily debated here at the Straight Dope. I, for one, believe that **Eureka** is actually a male, but is suffering from a highly unusual mental condition that causes him to claim that he is a person of the feminine persuasion. Other followers of ECM ( **Eureka** ’s a Crazy Man-person) and myself are deeply concerned by the frequent mischaracterizations of the idea that **Eureka** is actually female as fact instead of mere opinion. **Eureka** may subscribe to the theory that he’s a female, but our equally valid position deserves just as much consideration and attention from fellow Dopers. Hang in there, **Eureka**. We’re hoping you’ll get better soon. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ea924/32.png) [@Lord\_Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/51 "2003-09-15T16:37:26Z")
I took a Biology class last summer, and thought the professor handled this matter in the best way possible. He said there were three possibilities of where homo sapiens came from: 1.) Supernatural origins 2.) Extraterrestrial origins 3.) Evolution #1 can not be proven scientifically, so we won’t talk about it. #2 doesn’t answer any questions. It just pushes the beginning back further, so we won’t talk about it. We’re going to focus on #3, since it explains things the best as we know them. If you want to discuss #1 at length, sign up for a philosophy class. This way it gets mentioned and he explains why he is not going to go into it. This is how I would like to see all Biology teachers go about it. ---
**Author:** ![David\_Simmons](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9de053/32.png) [@David\_Simmons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_Simmons)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/52 "2003-09-15T20:31:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TVAA \* > \*\*This is a highly contentious issue, and one that is heavily debated here at the Straight Dope. > > I, for one, believe that **Eureka** is actually a male, but is suffering from a highly unusual mental condition that causes him to claim that he is a person of the feminine persuasion. Other followers of ECM ( **Eureka** ’s a Crazy Man-person) and myself are deeply concerned by the frequent mischaracterizations of the idea that **Eureka** is actually female as fact instead of mere opinion. > > **Eureka** may subscribe to the theory that he’s a female, but our equally valid position deserves just as much consideration and attention from fellow Dopers. > > Hang in there, **Eureka**. We’re hoping you’ll get better soon. \*\* And your view, by God, deserves equal time. ---
**Author:** ![capacitor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e47774/32.png) [@capacitor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/capacitor)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/53 "2003-09-15T22:12:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ambushed \* > \*\*Really? > > Boy were they (the NCSE) ever bending over backwards to be polite towards a rather misleading and irrelevant observation! The debate has nothing to do with the general meaning of the word “evolution” or the fact that the word is often used in contexts where it has no meaningful relationship with the natural principles of biology and selection, etc. Faith and science are fundamentally incompatible, and the fact that human language can be used to falsely blur the distinction between them merely illustrates the ease with which language can be used to promote deception. \*\* ambushed: two of the members of the board of NESC have divinity degrees, and one of them is actively working on exactly what I have described what needs to be done to bridge the gap between the study of evolution and faiths that are now hostile to the theory. Science is not the be all and end all of the pursuit of knowledge. Even scientists tell you that. Without faith that the Divine will show the truth when they are ready, there is no perseverance in any field, which is as crucial to scientific discovery as ‘Eureka!’ That is where the compatibility that eludes you comes in. ---
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2003, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/54 "2003-09-15T23:41:47Z")
There’s no other known way to reach knowledge than science. It’s not knowledge just because someone’s convinced it’s true. Perhaps one day, science will show the way to an even better way to examine and understand the world. Until that day, science is the only game in town. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/55 "2003-09-16T00:01:34Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*Science is not the be all and end all of the pursuit of knowledge. Even scientists tell you that. Without faith that the Divine will show the truth when they are ready, there is no perseverance in any field, which is as crucial to scientific discovery as ‘Eureka!’ That is where the compatibility that eludes you comes in. \*\* This seems a rather odd generalisation and is certainly far too broad; are you saying that _ **all** _ scientists operate in this manner? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/56 "2003-09-16T00:05:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > Science is not the be all and end all of the pursuit of knowledge. Even scientists tell you that. **Without faith that the Divine will show the truth when they are ready, there is no perseverance in any field,** which is as crucial to scientific discovery as ‘Eureka!’ That is where the compatibility that eludes you comes in. Pardom me if I’m highly skeptical of that claim (my bolding), unless you can show some scientific evidence that it’s true. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/57 "2003-09-16T02:39:12Z")
**TVAA** , I am trying to determine what your “diagnosis” of me as a crazy man says about your gender, especially in light of the ongoing thread on that subject. If I succeed I will probably post it in that thread, but don’t hold your breath. **capacitor** I am really flattered that you think I am so incredibly vital to scientific discoveries. 😉 Sorry, if that part of your post hadn’t been quoted twice before I read your post I might have been able to resist(or more likely failed to see my name at all). ---
**Author:** ![Dogface](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/9d8465/32.png) [@Dogface](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dogface)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/58 "2003-09-16T03:30:07Z")
Science is a method. If something is to be taught as “science” it needs to adhere to that method. Creation “science” does not adhere to that method. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 3:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/59 "2003-09-16T03:46:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > **ambushed: two of the members of the board of NESC have divinity degrees, and one of them is actively working on exactly what I have described what needs to be done to bridge the gap between the study of evolution and faiths that are now hostile to the theory.** Irrelevant. You asserted that “Evolution should be treated as a logical extension of faith”, which is as patently false or at the very least _wildly_ misleading as anything I’ve ever read! If someone there actually _agreed_ with you on that (rather than merely making polite non-committal noises), please tell me who it was so I can ask him or her if that’s what they actually meant and, if so, on what grounds they can justify such a spectacularly dubious assertion. I’d honestly like to understand just what they’re trying to claim, so please let me know who to email over there. Thanks! > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > **Science is not the be all and end all of the pursuit of knowledge.** True. It’s simply the only way to try to acquire genuine and reliable knowledge about the real Universe. Even scientists tell you that. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by capacitor \* > \*\*Without faith that the Divine will show the truth when they are ready, there is no perseverance in any field, which is as crucial to scientific discovery as ‘Eureka!’ That is where the compatibility that eludes you comes in. \*\* Ubboy… Ur, eh, uh… Can I at least ask when the “Divine” will be ready to reveal to the Creationists and ID’ers that they should not “persevere” with their blatantly anti-truth and anti-science dogma? ---
**Author:** ![Elemenopy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/b5e925/32.png) [@Elemenopy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elemenopy)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2003, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344/60 "2003-09-16T03:49:36Z")
I don’t see anything wrong with _mentioning_ creationism and ID in a science class, any more than earlier models of the atom are discussed, even though they are false or not as useful as models as newer ones are. However, demanding equal time for treatment of creationism and ID, and acting as if they are competing scientific theories, is wrong and unhelpful to students. It undermines the basic scientific principles that should be the foundation of science classes in the first place. We don’t, for instance, demand “equal time” presenting an Earth-centric solar system. Nor are there petitions requesting that creation theories of other religions, dead or alive, be taught as possibilities. I remember that in my HS days, there were theories presented _in textbooks_about, for instance, quantum mechanics, as though they were not only the prevailing theory, but the only one acceptable. Later I was irked to discover that there were other explanations for the same phenemona that were equally plausible (so far) and supported by experimentation. If textbooks and teachers are unable to handle competing valid theories, why muddle things further and waste classroom time by introducing religious viewpoints that have little to no basis in science? There aren’t enough days in the school calendar. Furthermore, I am a semi-religious Christian. I don’t believe in a literal translation of the Bible, especially Genesis, FWIW. Regardless, I don’t expect my child to learn about religious doctrine in school. Unless I sent my child to a private school (my particular flavor of Christianity has very few parochial schools), I wouldn’t trust a random teacher to instruct my children about those matters in the way I prefer, anyway. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-intelligent-design-and-equal-time-in-public-schools/201344.md?page=4)