# Creationism questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2000, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837 "2000-02-11T03:27:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2000, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/261 "2000-03-10T17:16:00Z")
Also from the Boomer link: > [@](#): > > If the goal is to quickly survive and reproduce, why tie survival to the (potentially lethal) digestive process of a mammal or bird? It would seem to be “safer” to infect, say the shell of a shellfish which may be discarded by a raccoon or a bird after the meal is complete. Why, indeed? Here they are trying to call into question an evolutionary mechanism for the parasite. But instead they show how torturous their logic is. A _designer_ would take the “safer” route, whereas evolution uses anything that works. A _designer_ wouldn’t have any need for parasites anyway. Why in the bloody hell would a _designer_ make a tapeworm? ---
**Author:** ![Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a88e57/32.png) [@Trout\_Mask\_Replica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trout_Mask_Replica)\ **Post date:** [March 10, 2000, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/262 "2000-03-10T17:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by hardcore: > **Why in the bloody hell would a _designer_ make a tapeworm?** You see, it wasn’t enough for God to toss Adam out of the Garden of Eden. He had to give him tapeworms too. 🙂 * * * TMR The fact that somewhere a camera is secretly pointed right up the business end of a toilet and somewhere else someone is hacking a password so we can see it for free is all the thanks we need. – From [http://www.oldmanmurray.com](http://www.oldmanmurray.com) ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 2:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/263 "2000-03-11T02:27:00Z")
David: OK. I’m new to this board, so I don’t have the historical perspective of knowing what YOU think. I maintain that there was a creator, an intelligence, a design, even to the entire universe and everything in it. And you say…what? That everything spontaneously created itself out of nothing, until the apes arrived, and we are the progeny thereof??? What is your idea of how everything came to be? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/264 "2000-03-11T03:39:00Z")
I don’t know of _anyone_ with any scientific background who claims “That everything spontaneously created itself out of nothing, until the apes arrived.” There’s about 4-and-a-half billion years between the start of life on Earth and the first appearance of apelike mammals. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/265 "2000-03-11T04:05:00Z")
Cmkeller said: > [@](#): > > your own leanings wish to view religious belief in the most malicious possible light, no matter what I might say My only “leanings” are those of logic and rationality. You, on the other hand, are unwilling to accept anything but your own beliefs, and so you make up stories to deal with the conflict between reality and those beliefs. One of those stories involves a god who makes a counterfeit world to trick people, but you don’t like the fraudulent implication of that, so you try to use weasel words to get around it, calling it an “imitation.” Give me a break. * * * Ignorance is Bliss. Reality is Better. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/266 "2000-03-11T04:21:00Z")
CalifBoomer said: > [@](#): > > OK. I’m new to this board, so I don’t have the historical perspective of knowing what YOU think. I maintain that there was a creator, an intelligence, a design, even to the entire universe and everything in it. I’m thrilled to hear it. Lots of people believe that. That does not, however, automatically mean they believe in a literal biblical interpretation of the six days of creation. Do you? Or do you accept evolution but believe there was a creator behind it, as many religious people do? > [@](#): > > And you say…what? That everything spontaneously created itself out of nothing, until the apes arrived, and we are the progeny thereof??? Perhaps you’ve heard of the Big Bang? Perhaps you’ve heard of evolution? These are the scientific theories that have evidence behind them. I don’t know what “caused” the Big Bang, though there are some interesting theories out. I do know we are not the progeny of apes. ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/267 "2000-03-11T04:41:00Z")
From the “Good Science” FAQ on the IRC site: > [@](#): > > **I know a scientist who won’t read a book. Do you have a video to recommend?** I’ll tell you what, I just hope that someday these scientists will get just a little curious about the world they live in and bother to pick up a freaking _book_ before they start telling me about how their evolution explains where the universe came from. Oh, hell. I dripped sarcasm on my shirt. You know that’s going to stain. * * * ## (to borrow a sig)The Poster Formerly Unknown as Rodimus “Are you frightened of snakes?” “Only when they dress like werewolves.” -Preacher ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/268 "2000-03-11T04:52:00Z")
Thank you for asking. I am neither a scientist nor a ‘great thinker’, simply an accountant. I have problems with both the literal interpretation of creation posited by some ‘religious’ people as well as problems with the ‘pure evolution’ of the Darwinians. Clearly, the earth is more than the 6000-odd years old as asserted by the ‘religious’ dogmaticists (sp?). Better minds than our have shown this to be factual, and there are volumes of evidence (unless physical law has somehow altered over the course of history) to support it. To cite that God created everything in 6 days equal to six solar days here on earth is to ignore other passages in scripture which refer to the length of a day. It is unclear how long a biblical day is. On the other hand, to deduce that pure evolution, ‘survival of the fittest’ ie, ‘natural selection’ has been the only activity resulting in our existence ignores a couple (at least) salient questions: 1. What produced the physical laws by which this universe operates? 2. If ‘evolution’ was the way to what is now, why don’t we see any current evidence of it? In other words, where are the currently evolving species? I don’t see dogs becoming rabbits, etc., (No doubt you will point to the vastness of time relative to our observations, and make the point that our lifetimes, indeed our history, is far to short to have observed empirical evidence of this unproven, unsupported claim). ---
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/269 "2000-03-11T05:14:00Z")
CalifBoomer, if I may presume to take a stab at your questions: 1)We can’t know. The information exists outside of time and space in the negative direction (that is, before the Big Bang, when time as we perceive it began), and so is beyond our ability to even extrapolate. 2)_Every_ species is a currently evolving species. They’re - no, I should say _we’re_ all the transitional forms that Creationists claim they can’t find. Every single one. Because there are no “terminus species” or whatever that other species are progressing toward. The concept of a “transitional” form only has meaning in retrospect. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/270 "2000-03-11T06:26:00Z")
All I want to know is this. Where the hell did Cain’s wife come from? The bible is oddly silent on this issue, considering it lists all of Adam’s male descendents. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/271 "2000-03-11T06:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by batgirl: > \*\*Yes, I am a professional scientist. I am currently a post-doctoral research fellow at Washington University School of Medicine. My research is on asthma. My graduate work was on bone development and osteoporosis. At last count I was co-author on six publications. > > As I stated earlier, I became a creationist in graduate school when I realized that the evolutionists had no more proof than the creationists AND in order to believe the evolutionists I would have to believe that a series of highly unlikely events all happened in a precise order for the world to come into being. I simply don’t believe this happened. No one can prove it did and no one can prove it didn’t, so it’s really just a matter of faith. (And if you don’t think there’s just as much dogma in science as there is in religion, try and disprove the department chairman’s hypothesis.) > > Ben, I’m not sure what questions you have about protein homology, but if you could be more specific I’ll try to give you a more complete answer. > > As to “why do science at all,” Rabbi Moses Maimonedes (the Rambam), one of the great Torah commentators of all time, said that there are two ways to come to know God: one is through the study of Torah, the other is through the study of his works. The more science I study, the more I appreciate what an amazing piece of work the world is. > > \*\* Batgirl, I do not share your beliefs, but you have defended yours admirably. It is folly to suffer the slings and arrows of those bent on changing your mind while keeping theirs closed. ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 7:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/272 "2000-03-11T07:23:00Z")
CalifBoomer: > [@](#): > > I have problems with both the literal interpretation of creation posited by some ‘religious’ people as well as problems with the ‘pure evolution’ of the Darwinians. So just what is the _CalifBoomerian_ theory that explains everything? Be sure to account for all the available evolutionary evidence. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/273 "2000-03-11T14:16:00Z")
CalifBoomer said: > [@](#): > > What produced the physical laws by which this universe operates? Who said anything/anyone had to “produce” them? They are part and parcel of the universe. > [@](#): > > If ‘evolution’ was the way to what is now, why don’t we see any current evidence of it? We do. Tons of it. Ever hear of antibiotic-resistant bacteria? Of weeds and insects becoming resistant to the sprays meant to kill them so they don’t take over crops? > [@](#): > > In other words, where are the currently evolving species? I don’t see dogs becoming rabbits, etc., (No doubt you will point to the vastness of time relative to our observations, and make the point that our lifetimes, indeed our history, is far to short to have observed empirical evidence of this unproven, unsupported claim). Well, yes, that is one of the points. So if you know it, why aren’t you taking it into consideration? Not to mention the silliness of your dogs-to-rabbits statement. As has already been mentioned, we’re all evolving. ## That said, there are also examples of speciations that have been observed. Here are some links for you to peruse: [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html) [http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html) Ignorance is Bliss. Reality is Better. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/274 "2000-03-11T17:22:00Z")
David B: > [@](#): > > Who said anything/anyone had to “produce” them? They are part and parcel of the > universe. I submit that you have approached this question with the preconcieved opinion that there is no creator. David, as a proponent of scientific procedure, you should well be aware of the fallacy of this method. You know you cannot disprove the existence of a creator. And I, in turn, cannot prove the existence of a creator. By definition, an infinite, all powerful being simply cannot be intellectually comprehended by finite limited creations. ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/275 "2000-03-11T17:30:00Z")
BTW, I do not refute the possibility of the evolutionary process. I refute the notion that it is somehow self-directed and devoid of any design or intelligence. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/276 "2000-03-11T17:37:00Z")
Ah. Well, in that case, can you tell me why my backbone is so poorly designed for upright walking? I get these awful pains near my numbar vertebrae every so often… ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/277 "2000-03-11T17:45:00Z")
Er, **lumbar** , not numbar. (Grumble grumble typos.) ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/278 "2000-03-11T20:07:00Z")
CalifBoomer said: > [@](#): > > I submit that you have approached this question with the preconcieved opinion that there is no creator. I submit that you didn’t read what I said, or at least didn’t understand it. Please try again. And if you don’t deny evolution, then why did you post some of the things about evolution that you’ve already said? Do you accept evolution or not? ---
**Author:** ![CalifBoomer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f1d935/32.png) [@CalifBoomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalifBoomer)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/279 "2000-03-11T21:24:00Z")
David, relax. I’ve already been where you are now and I understand your angst. It is exceedingly difficult to maintain an atheistic philosophy for an extended period of time. Every civilization down through the ages has had the idea of a creator. Now, you will no doubt assert some theoretical hypothesis that because we are so afraid of death-we just can’t deal with finality-nothingness-the our brains have created the concept of a greater being to assuage our fears while alive here. So, according to your theory of ‘everything from nothing’, God has evolved through evolution. Ergo, using your logic, God is a product of our evolution. However, you also assert that there is no intelligence, plan or design to our existence, so it follows that our evolutionary process is inherently flawed. Is that the essence of your view? ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2000, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/280 "2000-03-11T21:31:00Z")
Those darn paleontologists! They just keep finding more dinosaur bones! [http://cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/10/dinosaur.discovery.ap/index.html](http://cnn.com/2000/NATURE/03/10/dinosaur.discovery.ap/index.html) In Argentina, they have found the fossils of six dinosaurs, in a single location, each belonging to a previously-unknown species of carnivore, which looks like it was even bigger than the better-known _Tyrannosaurus rex_. Probable length, 45 feet, 5 feet longer than _T. rex_. This make the third carnivorous species found that was larger than _T. rex_. (The others are _Carnotaurus_, from Africa, and _Giganotosaurus_, from Argentina.) The ol’ boy may have to surrender his crown. Can’t really be the “tyrant lizard king” any more if you’re only number four on the list! Earlier on this thread, I posted that enormous herbivores, bigger than any found in North America or Asia, have also been found in Argentina. It makes sense, doesn’t it, that the carnivores would also be larger than those found north of the equator? And not only were they larger, it also seems like they hunted in packs. Imagine being hunted by six 45-foot-long carnivores… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837.md?page=15)