# Creationism questions **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 11, 2000, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837 "2000-02-11T03:27:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![batgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@batgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/batgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/61 "2000-02-11T21:20:00Z")
Spiritus Mundi, I’m not sure how knowing that there are “competing models for how that chain of events was structured” contradicts my belief that in order for life as we know it to exist a whole lot unlikely things had to happen and that it is more probably true that God made them happen than that they happened by chance. Also, I’m not sure that I made the claim that “a faith based event is scientifically supported.” I do, however, know that knowing what I do about science, I can say, “Wow, God did a reallly awesome job,” more than someone without that scientific knowledge. Sometime I’ll have to tell you about the missing oxygen in DNA and how its absence makes DNA highly stable, while its presence in RNA highly stable. By the way, when I taught high school it was in a religious high school, so you don’t have to worry about me poisioning the minds of unsuspecting evolutionist children at taxpayer expense. It’s been fun, but Shabbos starts in two hours, so I gotta go. I’ll be back Monday (God willing) and look forward to reading where this thread goes, if it goes anywhere. LOL, Batgirl ---
**Author:** ![batgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3bc359/32.png) [@batgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/batgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 9:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/62 "2000-02-11T21:26:00Z")
Spiritus Mundi, I’m not sure how knowing that there are “competing models for how that chain of events was structured” contradicts my belief that in order for life as we know it to exist a whole lot unlikely things had to happen and that it is more probably true that God made them happen than that they happened by chance. Also, I’m not sure that I made the claim that “a faith based event is scientifically supported.” I do, however, know that knowing what I do about science, I can say, “Wow, God did a reallly awesome job,” more than someone without that scientific knowledge. Sometime I’ll have to tell you about the missing oxygen in DNA and how its absence makes DNA highly stable, while its presence in RNA highly stable. By the way, when I taught high school it was in a religious high school, so you don’t have to worry about me poisioning the minds of unsuspecting evolutionist children at taxpayer expense. It’s been fun, but Shabbos starts in two hours, so I gotta go. I’ll be back Monday (God willing) and look forward to reading where this thread goes, if it goes anywhere. LOL, Batgirl ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/63 "2000-02-11T21:44:00Z")
Batgirl: May I recommend The Science of God by Gerald Schroeder. The link in the quote discusses his ideas of the age of the universe. > [@](#): > > [http://www.aish.edu/issues/universe.htm](http://www.aish.edu/issues/universe.htm) > Dr. Gerald Schroeder is a nuclear physicist who served on the staff of MIT and as a member of the U.S. Atomic Energy Commission. He is the author of “Genesis and the Big Bang” (Bantam Books 1990), and the recently-published “The Science of God.” Dr. Schroeder lectures frequently at Aish HaTorah in Jerusalem. The upshot of the book (the second link) is that it is possible to reconcile science with the Bible. He is also careful to say that his explanations for the his reconciliation are only **a** way to explain it. He thoughtfully advocates not throwing Science/Religion (depending on your starting point) out with the bath water. He obviously sites the Copernicus situation and the Church’s reaction. Now, NOBODY (including the church) doubts that the earth revolves around the sun. He also includes sites from Maimonides and Nachimides (sp?). One of two guys has a quote from around 500 yrs ago that discusses the meaning of the Hebrew words in Genesis 1. This quote presages the Big Bang. Interesting! I highly recommend the book to anyone. The book can be found here: [http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/076790303X/artvisitwww/028-6074108-2311622](http://www.amazon.de/exec/obidos/ASIN/076790303X/artvisitwww/028-6074108-2311622) ---
**Author:** ![Tinker\_Grey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tinker_grey/32/8136_2.png) [@Tinker\_Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tinker_Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/64 "2000-02-11T22:22:00Z")
Naturally, I have errors above. I should have said “presages big bang **theory** ”. I found the spelling of “Nahmanides”. And both these guys are around the 10-12th century - therefore presages by, lets say, 750 years. Sorry. Tinker ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 11, 2000, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/65 "2000-02-11T22:43:00Z")
Well, here is the information that batgirl needs to look at in order to see the theory behind abiogenesis and the long odds she has claimed thus far: [The Probability of Abiogenesis](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-abiogenesis.html) [Evolution and Chance](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/chance/chance.html) Please read these and comment on how it leaves the issues unexplored, thanks. * * * Yer pal, Satan ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/66 "2000-02-12T02:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Triskadecamus: There aren’t any of those (young-Earth creationists) here. We killed them all, and ate them. \

          **Tris** \ [/QUOTE] Now you know what I feed Darwin. But he’s lookin’ mighty famished. Sic 'em, boy! **Tinker Grey** , Schroeder’s book was reviewed by _The Skeptical Inquirer_ and was found wanting. I read it _before_ reading that review and I, too, was not impressed. Heck, that page in [Amazon.com](http://Amazon.com) you linked us to had critical reviews that pointed out the elementary mistakes Schroeder made in both science and Bible interpretation. Didn’t you read any of them and ponder what they said? As for **batgirl** , I may argue with her tomorrow, but the rest of you consider these two facts: 1. The last post of **Phaedrus** was on the “psychosis” thread in the Pit on January 24. 2. **batgirl** registered as a user on January 28. 3. “Her” profile is blank in the following important spaces: Occupation, Location, Interests and ICQ Number. **Phaedrus** also left those spaces blank. Question: If you left your occupation space blank when you registered, why did you go out of your way to tell us your occupation here in this thread? Could you tell us the name of the company who emplys you? Would it bother you if I go to old issues of US News to investigate the claim you made about your superior? Your claim to be Jewish means nothing. I’m not Jewish, but even I know that Jews are supposed to stop working at sundown every Friday. Fact against my theory: Your writing style is vastly different from **Phaedrus** ’s… But so was **KGB** ’s. Assuming you are for real, however, asnwer me this: Why do you people ALWAYS assume that if science cannot CURRENTLY explain a mystery, it will NEVER be able to do so? Why do flamingo knees bend backwards? Because they wouldn’t work any other way. And such an arrangement of bones, muscle and tissue could most certainly be found by random chance as by intelligent design, provided enough time is involved. And if they don’t work too well backwards, isn’t that an argument _against_ intelligent design? See ya Monday. * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---

**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/67 "2000-02-12T03:13:00Z")
Geez, I actually do work at work for one day and look what happens. Okay, batgirl believes the odds against abiogenesis supports a young Earth and a literal reading of Genesis. Fine. So far, we know of life existing on one small planet of one common type star in one undistinguished galaxy. If you deal enough hands of cards you are going to deal a royal flush. The holder of that hand COULD consider it a miracle, but then he would not be taking into account all the millions of non-“winning” hands that were dealt at the same time. ## Given enough time and enough space, the most improbable things are inevitable. Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University “You cannot reason a man out of a position he did not reach through reason.” ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 3:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/68 "2000-02-12T03:32:00Z")
Since batgirl has graciously offered to provide more details, I’m going to ask some questions about her explanation of protein homology. Let me also explain, batgirl, that the reason I asked whether you are a scientist is because if you are, then you must use protein homology frequently in your work, and therefore must have some sort of framework for understanding it. I am, therefore, interested in finding out what that framework is. > [@](#): > > Originally posted by batgirl: > \*\*Protein homology is that proteins from different species that perform the same function have similar amino acid sequences, e.g. hemoglobin in rats is similar to hemoglobin in humans is similar to hemoglobin in chimps. \*\* Not entirely correct. Protein homology is a measure of the similarity between two proteins (or, more broadly, one could compare a protein to a non-gene DNA sequence, like a pseudogene.) The proteins don’t have to have the same function, and could come from the same species. Why do you define homology so narrowly? It would seem to me that cross-species comparisons of, say, hemoglobin is the aspect of protein homology which is of the least interest in molecular biology. > [@](#): > > \*\* And, the more closely related the species are the more similar the amino acid sequences are, so the amino acid sequence of human hemoglobin is more similar to the sequence of chimp hemoglobin than rat hemoglobin. \*\* Yes, but you have not explained why this is the case. Why didn’t God just use the same working hemoglobin for all of them? > [@](#): > > \*\* Once God invented hemoglobin (or any other protein) He didn’t need to re-invent it for each new species. \*\* Then why are there proteins with similar sequence but different functions, and proteins with different sequence and similar functions? And why did God “reinvent” some proteins? For example, why do molluscan and vertebrate lens crystallins share no homology with each other? Or vertebrate and insect odorant binding proteins? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/69 "2000-02-12T03:35:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by cmkeller: > \*\*1) Why do galaxies rotate? Because they follow the laws of physics. Why shouldn’t they rotate, creationism or evolutionism? > > \*\* If God created a trillion stars ex nihilo, why did he give them angular momentum and arrange them in a spiral pattern which would imply that they had condensed over trillions of years from a cloud of gas? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Fillet](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/2acd7d/32.png) [@Fillet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fillet)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 5:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/70 "2000-02-12T05:28:00Z")
batgirl, I’m puzzled - please help me understand some things. As an earth scientist, I am all too painfully aware of the general public’s lack of knowledge about the specifics of radiometric dating, etc., because earth science is usually taught as an elective rather than as a requirement. I also don’t expect fellow scientists from other fields to automatically understand the particulars of mine, and vice versa; after all, we can’t all be experts on everything. But I am absolutely stunned to find that you made it through a Ph.D. program in molecular biology with NO (and I mean zip, zero, zilch) understanding of the scientific method. > [@](#): > > Not being a physicist, I hesitate to comment on the quality of the data estimating the age of the earth. I will say that all measurements are based on assumptions, and the assumptions made in estimating the age of the earth could be wrong. IIRC the estimated age of the universe has been revised a couple of times (not sure about changes in the age oF the earth.) > [@](#): > > Most people I work with in science don’t use the word theory at all. Call evolution a theory, a hypothesis, an attempt to explain, whatever you like. The bottom line is, what scientists perceive the best explanation of anything to be is constantly changing, and the closer you are to a field the more aware you are of the changes. Lots of things that were thought to be true when I was an undergraduate are no longer considered true. For example, one of my college textbooks stated that DNA was fixed in position in chromosomes. Then Barbara McClintok won the Nobel prize for discovering “transposons,” or as she liked to call them, “jumping genes,” pieces of DNA that move within (and I think between) chromosomes. She had actually been suggesting that such a thing existed since the early fifties, but since it didn’t fit with conventional dogma it took 30 years for the scientific community to admit that she was right. While Watson and Crick were winning their Nobel prize for discovering the double helix, Linus Pauling was saying it was a triple heliz. Turns out they were all right: DNA is a double helix under most conditions, but triple helical forms exist in nature. Only took Pauling about 20 years to convince everyone. Point is, what is believed to be true is changing all the time. Good grief! How did you arrive at the notion that scientific discovery is a one-step process? That if a hypothesis for phenomenon X is later shown to be incorrect (through new data or insights), you may as well just throw out any reasoned consideration of the phenomenon and ascribe everything to God? What do you do when you discover that a hypothesis that you’re testing in your own research doesn’t hold water? Forgive me for being just a little bit skeptical, but I just had to check on the personal info you described. Yes, I found a thesis in the Dissertation Index with the title you gave, but that degree was granted in 1998, not in 1996. Furthermore, I note that your title in the Washington Univ. Med School directory is given as Senior Research Technician… a little bit different for post-Doctoral Fellow (BTW, these folk are listed as such, so why not you?). What gives? ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [February 12, 2000, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/71 "2000-02-12T21:43:00Z")
At the present time, the explanations by astrophysicists for the formation of the Sun contain too manny variables and happenstances. What are the odds that those particular molecules of dust would be in just the right position to collapse into a star the size of the Sun? Astronomical, literally. ## Therefore, I believe that the Sun is in truth the chariot of Apollo. Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University “You cannot reason a man out of a position he did not reach through reason.” ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [February 13, 2000, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/72 "2000-02-13T00:39:00Z")
Originally post by **fillet** : > [@](#): > > Forgive me for being just a little bit skeptical, but I just had to check on the personal info you described. Yes, I found a thesis in the Dissertation Index with the title you gave, but that degree was granted in 1998, not in 1996. Furthermore, I note that your title in the Washington Univ. Med School directory is given as Senior Research Technician… a little bit different for post-Doctoral Fellow (BTW, these folk are listed as such, so why not you?). > > What gives?\*\* If I’m wrong about **batgirl** being **Phaedrus** , I’ll apologize. But it looks like she hasn’t been completely honest with us in any case. * * * \>\< DARWIN \> \_\_ **L\_\_\_L** ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/73 "2000-02-14T01:15:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by jab1: > \*\*Originally post by **fillet** : > If I’m wrong about **batgirl** being **Phaedrus** , I’ll apologize. But it looks like she hasn’t been completely honest with us in any case. > \*\* Who cares? If she can politely provide an intelligent rationale for protein homology within a creationist framework, then it doesn’t matter if she’s Phaedrus. If she can’t, then it doesn’t matter if she isn’t. Give her a break! -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/74 "2000-02-14T01:38:00Z")
Well, where is she then? * * * Yer pal, Satan ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/75 "2000-02-14T02:00:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally posted by Satan: > \*\*Well, where is she then? > \*\* Beats me. Why do you ask? Is it a crime to think about a question for a day before responding? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![hardcore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b5a626/32.png) [@hardcore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hardcore)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/76 "2000-02-14T02:11:00Z")
She indicated in her last post that she would not return until Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Holly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/48db29/32.png) [@Holly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Holly)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 9:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/77 "2000-02-14T09:23:00Z")
Flamingo knees are “backwards” because they’re not knees at all; they’re ankles. They just have really long feet. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/78 "2000-02-14T12:46:00Z")
Spiritus: Squirm all you like, but > [@](#): > > A PhD in molecular biology **who can neither spell “carburetor”** nor take the 10 seconds required to look it up? is a grammar slam, not to mention an irrelevant ad hominem. It’s beneath you. As is this continued defense of it. ---
**Author:** ![RoboDude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bbe5ce/32.png) [@RoboDude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoboDude)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/79 "2000-02-14T14:22:00Z")
* * * ## As for “proving” God, you can’t prove He doesn’t exist anymore than I can prove He does. Unless of course you let me use the Bible, which Dr. J has stated is not scientific evidence although no one has told me why not. Because to my knowledge, no proof exists for any of the events in it. And blind faith isn’t proof by any stretch of the imagination. * * * Life is a tragedy for those who feel and a comedy for those who think. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2000, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837/80 "2000-02-14T14:36:00Z")
You can’t prove that anything, including yourself, exists. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-questions/17837.md?page=5)