That’s pretty creative.
How can there be a mis-translation of the unerring word of god? Trying to use bad science to explain the bible will NOT work, you just make yourself look silly, er…
samhouch, the universe is a closed system. Anyway I have no wish to try and explain the basics of thermodynamics to someone who really doesn’t want to know, so regardless, let me jut tell you there is no conflict between thermodynamics and evolution.
The fact that creationists use such (scinetifically) unsophiscated arguments shows a very real lack of understanding of the most basic scientific concepts.
They do it on purpose. They’re not trying to convice anyone that knows better, but to prove to their already ignorant followers that they’re right, by using the “enemy’s” tools against them. They know none of the fundamentalist christians out there are actually going to read the opposing viewpoints. We just frustrate ourselves by arguing the unarguable.
It was just that I used to post on a fundie message board, after many posts I did manage to get through that this argument was invlaid and it made the arguer look like they were ignorant of basic science or a liar.
Then I congratulate you!! Bravo!! Well Done!!! <golf clap>!!
The argument that convinced them was roughly as followed:
Crystals have undemiably (by the basics of thermodyanimcs i.e. a perfect crystal has an entropy of zero) lower entropy than a liquid. How is it then that liquid water is able to form ice crystals as this would seeming represent a decrease in entropy. The answer of course is that the entropy increase associated with the process that creates the crystals necessarily more than offsets the entropy decrease. Simlair leaving a fridge (with a thermostat that we presume keeps the fridge at the same tempo. whether open or closed) open in a room (or more properly a closed system) would actually increase the temperature of the room.
Thank God we can go back and study the Greek and Hebrew texts when questions arise from changes to those texts.
The point is, God didn’t originally say stone vault, He did not err. The change was the error. Why would the author bear the blame for a mis-quote? Had you thought that all versions of the Bible were guaranteed to be inerrant? The original scripture was inspired, not the translations after. Relatively microscopic errors have ocurred in hand copying the texts throughout history - nothing to change meaning. It’s extremely difficult when the original is translated into another language, borderline when there’s not word for word equivalent, and criminal when deliberately changed. Not to mention when you throw in the dynamics of the english language which itself subtley changes through the years. We’re talking about a Latin translation of a Greek translation that had a word changed from the Hebrew. The Hebrew had it right. In an overall view, most Bible translations speak with enough accuracy to learn of God’s love and supremecy, but when doctrine or understanding comes down to the exact meaning of a particular phrase, verse, word, or stroke of the pen, double checking the Greek or Hebrew text (for New Testament and Old Testament respectively) is highly recommended.
Except when God interacts with it, then it’s an open system… like when he created it.
Yes, the laws of thermodynamics apply to closed systems…
but it’s not just as simple as saying the Earth is an open system, it is a subsystem behaving according to the laws of thermo because it exists in a closed system (universe). Even the universe, and thereby its subsystems are subject to open status everytime the external force, God, interacts.
External God interacts… open system
System continues on own steam… closed system.
and no, God does not experience the problems of entropy as we do here in our physical dimension.
Ive got some cake. Im also eating it.
None of these occurences ADD information that is required for microbe to man to occur. Mutations only shuffle or subtract what’s already there.
I recommend this article adressing the crystal argument:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs/370.asp
If you want to put God outside of the Universe system then you must also consider the new “combined” system that God and Universe form. It is a closed system for it is the ONLY system-- it is all that exists. (NOTE: I maintain that there is no such God, so the only system that exists is the Universe by itself-- I am merely positing a hypothetical meta-system that includes samhouch’s God as well as the Universe to show that the meta-system is a closed one.
In other words, if x is the Universe-- a sometimes open, sometimes closed system (as per samhouch) and y is the external force (“God”) that sometimes affects x, then we must also consider x + y as an all-encompassing, closed, meta-system. And at that point, I think we must consider that either: (1) God is simply another part of the Universe, beholden to all the Rules and Laws of the rest of the cosmos; (2) The entire Universe is God (pan-theism); or (3) God does not exist as a controlling entity-- rather, only as a convenient, oft-repeated myth.
I’m holding out for number 3, but number 2 is basically the same thing-- with the addition of nifty jargon to appease people who simply MUST define SOMETHING as “God”, so they can sleep at night.
Should dimensions and potentially different binding laws be considered here? That would allow co-existence yet seperate systems.
How can the “system” that includes our universe and the “system” that includes God interact at all if they’re “seperate” ? If God can and has made changes to our universe, then the notion of of a meta-system that includes our universe plus God makes perfect sense, as well as implying the question of what created God, and/or what limits (if any) are on God’s abilities. If you want to postulate some kind of inter-dimensional aspect to God’s nature, then God comes off as some kind of a boob, since he waxes much wroth at the evil of men, even though he created men in the first place and as an omniscient entity, must be aware of all that men are capable of.
In any case, arguments involving such nonsense as parallel dimensions and such are no different from using a simple word like “magic” to explain everything:
[ul][li]How can birds fly? Magic.[/li][li]Why is it colder in winter? Magic.[/li][li]Why is the sky blue? Magic.[/ul][/li]
You can substitute “God” for “magic”, if you like, or even “an interdimensional God of infinite power and benevolence not bound by the limiting laws of phsyics of this universe etc. etc.” and the answer is equally meaningless. You could, if you wished, create a hugely long and complex answer, but the instant it contains an element which remains unknown or unknowable and you are satisfied with letting it stay unknown or unknowable, you may as well save the effort and just fall back on “magic”.
Personally, I like evolution, since it implies a noble struggle well fought[sup]*[/sup] rather than some omnipotent God creating the universe on a whim, or solely to create worshippers to stroke His omnipotent ego.
[sup]*Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know there isn’t really a noble element to evoution at all, but it amuses me to think of it in those terms, so back off.[/sup]
Why doesn’t he? How do you know? Are you privy to the God Newsletter that states such things? This is a spurious statement that can have no meaning since it cannot be proven or disproven.
The difference between God and the sun in their comparison of their outside influence on an open / closed system, is for one, the sun is an perpetual source. God can turn on and off at will. When he’s off, closed system. On, open system.
If He were multidimensional, I’m sure he could cross and influence at will.
Genesis states he considered His creations as good at the time of creation. Man has had free will to choose to do right or wrong. Too often he chooses evil / disobedience / pride. Yes, God knew what He was getting into, and those that choose to love Him do it of their own volition. Seeing what it’s like without Him serves to make me appreciate Him all the more, which may indeed be the point of creating things the way they are. He knew in advance that to offer a way out of our sorry mess, he’d have to let us crucify Jesus, and act like total prideful jerks for the majority of our population and existence. Talk about patience, love, and power.
Why would god allow a mis-translation?? This is as ridiculous as the “Isnpired” assumption in the first place. Why would god inspire a text that was readable by only a very small number of people? Apparently he had no foresight, knowing that thousands of years later people would want to hear the unerring word of god. Too bad, you can’t read ancient hebrew, very few people can accurately. Sorry, god goofed. Must not be a god then.
Bollocks. You’re assuming information you cannot know. Going by your logic, God knew his experiment would fail and that he would have to flood the world, essentially starting over. He knew people like Caligula, Napoleon, Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot would come to be and what horrors they would create. Yet he did nothing to stop them. Why not? He certainly acted against Sodom and Gomorrah, against the Egyptians, and so many other “miracles” in aid of the jews. Why did he forsake them in modern times? Or is it becuase the allegory of a miracle wouldn’t have flown in more enlightened times. And since the bible was already written, no more miracles could be written in.
God had zero foresight. Not a god at all, but a construct of the human mind, as imperfect as are we.
I came up with the argument independtly, but I’m not suprised that it’s been used before.
Let me say that the website fails completly to adress the arguement. It’s self-defeating to suddenly differntiate between order and complexity as the more ‘complex’ the arrangments of atoms the more microstates the system has and the higher the entropy. Thermodynamically you would expect a system to become more complex. Try doing a serach for ‘configurational entropy’ which is basically how crystals which deviate more from the simple crystalline structure have more entropy.
Also the second law of thermodynamics only applies to closed systems, if it applied to open systems too your fridge wouldn’t work.