# Creationism: Why not call a spade a spade? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065 "2013-09-05T11:44:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/241 "2013-09-14T17:21:49Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you have any evidence to refute this? He’s going to say that the evidence is the existence of objective morality. Of course, there’s no evidence of objective morality, and he seems to be unwilling to get into this. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/242 "2013-09-14T17:23:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > He’s going to say that the evidence is the existence of objective morality. Of course, there’s no evidence of objective morality, and he seems to be unwilling to get into this. Even if it _did_ exist, I would still ask him how this would be evidence for what he proposes. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/243 "2013-09-14T22:17:40Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > “A few things agreed to b most humans over time” is perhaps an understatement, but it is still pretty close! Thank you. > > As to the rules, I can’t be more clear. The torture of an innocent child is morally wrong. Always has been, always will be. Now explain how that works in a naturalistic world in which for millennia individuals, families, communities, towns, cities and countries have fought over scarce resources. I’m not sure there have been many societies which would benefit in any way from torturing a child. There certainly have been societies which abandon sickly children, and manhood ordeals no doubt led to the death of some of the participants. As for why children are considered special, they share our dna, therefore parents have a genetic investment in their children (though perhaps not to those who cost too much) and so want to protect them. Purely natural. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 14, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/244 "2013-09-14T22:38:05Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > 1. An example of objective morality: "The torture of an innocent child is wrong. > 2. Please explain this in the context of a purely naturalistic universe. > > That’s the question that hasn’t been answered. If you can cite the post where it has, and to which I have not given a rebuttal, I will leave the thread. It has been answered, but here we go again: A society where children get murdered is less happy than one where this is effectively banned. The sight of dead children makes most people unhappy. Children are our future; it’s bad public policy to destroy a major investment. We like children because of our physical instincts; we don’t like murder for the same reason. We remember being children ourselves, and have the power of empathy. We like kids and want them to be happy. We extend, via the slippery slope: what’s next? Murdering adults? (Whether or not fallacious, it is how many people reason.) All purely materialistic and naturalistic reasons. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/245 "2013-09-15T12:41:41Z")
Wait- are we asking about murdering children or torturing them? These are two different questions. Torturing children has no upside. It is, as I have said, a waste of time and resources. But slaying your enemy’s offspring makes sense in a resource-limited situation. If you cannot afford to adopt the children of your defeated foes, then it is more humane to kill them outright (while you are destroying their cities or whatever). If you don’t adopt or kill them, you have left your tribe open to vengeance attacks by whichever of those children survived to adulthood. Nits make lice. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/246 "2013-09-15T18:08:41Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > By the external agent. How did the external agent decide what the moral code would be? Was it not actually wrong to torture children until the external agent said so? ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/247 "2013-09-15T18:20:18Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > How did the external agent decide what the moral code would be? > > Was it not actually wrong to torture children until the external agent said so? It wasn’t definably evil until Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Now, there were two trees, and if they had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have had eternal life. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/248 "2013-09-15T18:32:11Z")
The point is: If God says killing kids is wrong purely because he decided it is so, then he could just as easily have decided that killing kids is not wrong, therefore morality is arbitrary. However, if killing kids is wrong because of some kind of universal morality to which God is beholden, then he’s not omnipotent (and perhaps not even necessary in the equation). ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/249 "2013-09-15T18:42:29Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > It wasn’t definably evil until Adam and Eve ate from the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil. Not much merit there, there were no children until after that. > [@SirGalahad](#): > > Now, there were two trees, and if they had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have had eternal life. I still think Eve was framed and the snake was following what god expected. I see it as a well to do father that has decided that it is better that the kids think that it was their fault that they do not live in paradise anymore, rather than god to appear as the bad guy; the plan all along was to make them fend for themselves some day. Better to give them the ultimate guilt trip. IMHO I would not blame God at all, but think that it was a good cunning plan. Better to say “You are cursed with toil and sweat because you are naughty” that telling them “Go to work you lazy bums!” for no apparent reason. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/250 "2013-09-15T18:53:41Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > The point is: > > If God says killing kids is wrong purely because he decided it is so, then he could just as easily have decided that killing kids is not wrong, therefore morality is arbitrary. > However, if killing kids is wrong because of some kind of universal morality to which God is beholden, then he’s not omnipotent (and perhaps not even necessary in the equation). He obviously thought killing the first-born Egyptian kids was hunky-dory, and all the kids in Sodom and Gommorrah, and all the kids that weren’t directly related to Noah… And Josephs tribe killed everyone in the city of Bethel except one family. Judges 1:21-35 The men of Dan did the same to the town of Laish, except no one survived. Judges 18:27-29 The men of Judah killed all the people of Jerusalem. Judges 1:1-8 “One day in Tirzah, Elah was getting drunk at the home of Arza, the supervisor of the palace. Zimri walked in and struck him down and killed him. This happened in the twenty-seventh year of King Asa’s reign in Judah. Then Zimri became the next king. Zimri immediately killed the entire royal family of Baasha, and \*\*he did \*\ ***not leave a single male child**. He even destroyed distant relatives and friends. So Zimri destroyed the dynasty of Baasha as the LORD had promised through the prophet Jehu.” 1 Kings 16:9-13 There are a LOT more, but you get the idea. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/251 "2013-09-15T20:01:17Z")
Which is exactly why I asked our erstwhile friend for clarification. He specifically said that “torturing an innocent child” was immoral, and that this was an example of morality imposed by an outside agent, as he could not imagine a “naturalistic” reason that people might be hesitant to torture an innocent child. I may be jumping to conclusions by equating the morals-imposing agent with the God of the Bible. If so, we must differentiate between torturing an innocent child and killing the children of tribes you are fighting. The God of the Bible is recorded as having no problems with killing children. But I must wait until \*\*Intrinsic \*\*returns to clear things up before going any further in that direction. I hate arguing against a position which my opponent doesn’t actually hold; that is a waste of time and verbiage. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/252 "2013-09-15T20:45:27Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Now, there were two trees, and if they had eaten from the Tree of Life, they would have had eternal life. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > I still think Eve was framed and the snake was following what god expected. Excellent point. I bet if the snake had decided to pull a fast on and direct Eve to the Tree of Life, it would have had a crop of Knowledge of Good and Evil apples tied to the branches. ---
**Author:** ![SirGalahad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/71c47a/32.png) [@SirGalahad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SirGalahad)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/253 "2013-09-15T21:50:45Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Excellent point. I bet if the snake had decided to pull a fast on and direct Eve to the Tree of Life, it would have had a crop of Knowledge of Good and Evil apples tied to the branches. Why wouldn’t God want you to know Good and Evil, or at least Good from Evil? “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever …” Genesis 3-22 … banned from Eden. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 2013, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/254 "2013-09-15T22:05:42Z")
> [@SirGalahad](#): > > Why wouldn’t God want you to know Good and Evil, or at least Good from Evil? > > “And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever …” > > Genesis 3-22 > > … banned from Eden. Having bums that live forever is worse indeed. ---
**Author:** ![Conservian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c57346/32.png) [@Conservian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Conservian)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/255 "2013-09-16T22:15:02Z")
> [@DrFidelius](#): > > Which is exactly why I asked our erstwhile friend for clarification. He specifically said that “torturing an innocent child” was immoral, and that this was an example of morality imposed by an outside agent, as he could not imagine a “naturalistic” reason that people might be hesitant to torture an innocent child. > > I may be jumping to conclusions by equating the morals-imposing agent with the God of the Bible. If so, we must differentiate between torturing an innocent child and killing the children of tribes you are fighting. The God of the Bible is recorded as having no problems with killing children. > > But I must wait until \*\*Intrinsic \*\*returns to clear things up before going any further in that direction. I hate arguing against a position which my opponent doesn’t actually hold; that is a waste of time and verbiage. Are you attempting to use the judgment of God and the torturing of an innocent child as some sort of moral equivalent? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/256 "2013-09-16T22:27:25Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Are you attempting to use the judgment of God and the torturing of an innocent child as some sort of moral equivalent? Of course not! How could we possibly compare the drowning of thousands of innocent men, women and children to the torture of just one innocent child? ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/257 "2013-09-16T22:29:02Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Are you attempting to use the judgment of God and the torturing of an innocent child as some sort of moral equivalent? Is this a serious question? Of course not: the question is “where does morality come from.” Some people think morality comes from God. Others think it comes from humanity. The question “Why is torturing children wrong?” addresses that issue of origins. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/258 "2013-09-16T22:38:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > I still think Eve was framed and the snake was following what god expected. I see it as a well to do father that has decided that it is better that the kids think that it was their fault that they do not live in paradise anymore, rather than god to appear as the bad guy; the plan all along was to make them fend for themselves some day. Better to give them the ultimate guilt trip. > > IMHO I would not blame God at all, but think that it was a good cunning plan. Better to say “You are cursed with toil and sweat because you are naughty” that telling them “Go to work you lazy bums!” for no apparent reason. :rolleyes: And how did the millions of women who were demonized over the centuries as “Daughters of Eve” and the source of all evil and temptation benefit from that? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/259 "2013-09-16T22:43:20Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Are you attempting to use the judgment of God and the torturing of an innocent child as some sort of moral equivalent? I’m not sure if he is, but I will- if the Bible is accurate (I don’t believe it is, by the way, nor do I think God exists), then God is guilty (through ordering his followers) of thousands of rapes and murders. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 2013, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/260 "2013-09-16T23:44:17Z")
> [@Conservian](#): > > Are you attempting to use the judgment of God and the torturing of an innocent child as some sort of moral equivalent? Moral equivalent? No. I am just trying to get some guidance from our (currently missing) new friend **Intrinsicvalue**. He (or she) seemed to believe that the sense of morality which condemns that torture of an innocent child had to have been imposed from the outside. My question was whether the imposer of morality in his (or her) world is the same entity as the God of the Bible. Also, I felt that our discussion of a “naturalistic” basis for considerations of the morality of torturing an innocent child had gone off-topic, as many of us were conflating murder with torture. If the imposer of morality is equivalent to the God of the Bible, then we must recognize that the murder of children is acceptable to that Being, at least under certain circumstances. For the record, I do not support or endorse torture or murder of any person, regardless of their age or state of innocence. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065.md?page=14)