# Creationism: Why not call a spade a spade? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 5, 2013, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065 "2013-09-05T11:44:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/121 "2013-09-11T15:33:39Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > I’m sorry but I have no idea who you are to determine that some of the leading scientists on the planet are ignorant. I have eyes and ears? Humans can be willfully ignorant, as in the case of someone exposed to the relevant information who then rejects it in favor of personal belief. > [@](#): > > But I’m happy to engage with you on the moral code. Explain in a purely naturalistic universe why the murder of an innocent child is morally wrong. It is disruptive to society. It ends potential. It is counter-productive to the survival of the species. It is a violation of the personhood of the child. It is inflicting on someone else something that we don’t want inflicted on us because we perceive it to be bad. Can you really not think of a reason that killing a child is bad without god being involved? ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/122 "2013-09-11T15:33:46Z")
[quote=“hotflungwok, post:114, topic:668065”] I don’t need to. There is no objective evidence to support the existence of anything defined as supernatural. I am free to reject the idea using just as much evidence. [quote] 2. Here’s a few more…[List of Christians in science and technology - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Christian_thinkers_in_science) > [@](#): > > No, that’s just a list of Christians who also happened to be scientists. While there might be some overlap, they are not all Creationists. > But that isn’t the working definition of ‘Creationist’. A Creationist rejects evolution and accepts the biblical accounts of creation. That is your definition. It is not mine. ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/123 "2013-09-11T15:35:01Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > I looked up his bio and I didn’t see where he has ever indicated he was ever anything but a devout Christian and believer in creationism. > > Do you have someone to cite who “hold[s] creationist beliefs because of what they observe in the natural world”? No-one is born with developed theories on these matters. Look deeper. ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/124 "2013-09-11T15:36:46Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > It is disruptive to society. It ends potential. It is counter-productive to the survival of the species. It is a violation of the personhood of the child. It is inflicting on someone else something that we don’t want inflicted on us because we perceive it to be bad. > > Can you really not think of a reason that killing a child is bad without god being involved? In a naturalistic world, what is personhood? What value does it have? What if that child’s family is competing with mine for food and other necessities of life? What is ‘bad’ in a naturalistic world? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/125 "2013-09-11T15:37:19Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > No-one is born with developed theories on these matters. Look deeper. No. Show me. It’s your assertion, back it up. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/126 "2013-09-11T15:39:35Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > 1. My position is simply that if I can demonstrate that an objective morality cannot be supported by naturalism alone, then you will have grounds to reconsider you original proposition. > 2. You have refused to even entertain the challenge. That is of course your prerogative, but it seems to be very closed minded. Your position is wrong logically-Any knowledge I may or may not have as to the natural morality of any given event has no bearing whatsoever on the possibility of your alternate supernatural universe. It just shows that I either know or do not know the answer to your question. It is entirely possible that it _can_ be explained in the natural universe but I don’t have that particular knowledge. ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/127 "2013-09-11T15:40:08Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > We, as humans, _tend_ to have an intrinsic objection to violence, which can be overridden in certain people depending on the situation. Having an intrinsic objection to the harming of people we percieve as innocent both helps our family survive, by not promoting random violence against our family, and the species survive, by ensuring that unless there is a conflict, we do not kill each other. > > My explanation above is not a well fleshed out hypothesis at present but for all that is still much more plausible than the assertion that morals exist independently of the brain and were created by an unseen immortal being. The very point is that you need to explain where your intrinsic objection comes from. Also, we don’t think as a species but as individuals. If a village threatens my survival, I deal with that. In a naturalistic world there is no value to anyones life other than mine and my families, unless they can provide me with something I need and don’t threaten me. \ ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/128 "2013-09-11T15:40:46Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > Lee Spetner’s work is well known. If you haven’t encountered it previously you have not covered the bases. Here’s a quick and dirty intro…[Evolutionary mechanisms](http://www.0095.info/en/index_thesesen_95onesentencethesesagainste_evolutionarymechanisms.html). From your cite: > [@](#): > > These mechanisms are, practically without exception, ineffective or harmful, hardly ever useful and often fatal. In addition, there is the fact that, according to rough estimates by John Haldane, even one million years of constant development time would not be enough to produce a biodiversity such as we see today. This is false. See: [eColi experiment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_long-term_evolution_experiment) This bacteria evolved a method of using citric acid as food, in a relatively short period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/129 "2013-09-11T15:41:16Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > No. Show me. It’s your assertion, back it up. I have. I gave you his name. He is well represented on the web, in particular on you-tube. ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/130 "2013-09-11T15:41:58Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > That is your definition. It is not mine. I define a creationist as someone who wears purple on Tuesdays. Are you a creationist now? ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/131 "2013-09-11T15:42:20Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > From your cite: > > This is false. See: [eColi experiment](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escherichia_coli_long-term_evolution_experiment) > This bacteria evolved a method of using citric acid as food, in a relatively short period of time. “pratically without exception” ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/132 "2013-09-11T15:42:52Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > In a naturalistic world, what is personhood? What value does it have? What if that child’s family is competing with mine for food and other necessities of life? What is ‘bad’ in a naturalistic world? Once again, any answer given to these off-topic questions has no bearing whatsoever on the existence of your proposed supernatural world. My not know the answer to any given question doesn’t make _your_ answer even worth considering. _Got Evidence?_ ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/133 "2013-09-11T15:44:08Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > “pratically without exception” An assertion given weight by the next sentence, which predicts that this could not happen but once in a million years. Reality dictates otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/134 "2013-09-11T15:44:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Your position is wrong logically-Any knowledge I may or may not have as to the natural morality of any given event has no bearing whatsoever on the possibility of your alternate supernatural universe. It just shows that I either know or do not know the answer to your question. It is entirely possible that it _can_ be explained in the natural universe but I don’t have that particular knowledge. I suggest that is your way of running… ---
**Author:** ![hotflungwok](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/edb3f5/32.png) [@hotflungwok](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hotflungwok)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/135 "2013-09-11T15:45:54Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > Also, we don’t think as a species but as individuals. No, we think in groups. Societies, organization, families, clans, etc. > [@](#): > > In a naturalistic world there is no value to anyones life other than mine and my families, unless they can provide me with something I need and don’t threaten me. \ Why is this insufficient value? What other value is there? ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/136 "2013-09-11T15:46:08Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > > [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > > > And if there isn’t an objective moral code? > > Oh but there is. Is the torture of an innocent child ever morally acceptable? At the risk of creating a (further) hijack: According to whom in what society? Certainly, you will not find (many) people today in our society accepting the infliction of torture on a person identified both as “innocent” and “child,” but there have clearly been societies who had no problem with that behavior. Setting an infant with a deformity or the “wrong” sex out to die of exposure has been practiced in many societies, (including some to whom we look as models from which we draw inspiration. “Spare the rod; spoil the child” has been used to justify behavior that I would consider torture even in our society within my lifetime. If there was a fixed moral standard, that would have been deemed wrong by all societies. I recall from an anthropology class I took a long time ago that only three rules have been found in every society: prohibitions on murder, theft, and incest. However, in each case, the definitions of those taboo actions have differed so widely as to actually contradict each other from society to society. Murder and theft, for example, have often been defined as only applying to members of the tribe, extended, sometimes, to guests. Incest has such a wide variety of definitions, (sometimes requiring mating between siblings), that it, too, is of no use in determining an “objective” morality. If you attempt to list an “objective” morality, you will soon find that it cannot be passed across societal boundaries without being shredded. ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/137 "2013-09-11T15:46:12Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > I define a creationist as someone who wears purple on Tuesdays. Are you a creationist now? No. Now show me that definition anywhere authoritative. Meanwhile… ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/138 "2013-09-11T15:48:48Z")
> [@Intrinsicvalue](#): > > No. Now show me that definition anywhere authoritative. Meanwhile… …why don’t you quit playing games and give us _your_ definition of “Creationist”? ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/139 "2013-09-11T15:49:14Z")
> [@hotflungwok](#): > > No, we think in groups. Societies, organization, families, clans, etc. > Why is this insufficient value? What other value is there? We think as individuals, within ‘packs’. If my pack is threatened by your pack, I will react. Naturalism places no value on anyones life above my own. There is no room for altruism that does not benefit me. There is no value to anyone’s life outside of it’s utility to me. ---
**Author:** ![Intrinsicvalue](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/57b2e6/32.png) [@Intrinsicvalue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Intrinsicvalue)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2013, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065/140 "2013-09-11T15:50:15Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > …why don’t you quit playing games and give us _your_ definition of “Creationist”? I did…that’s what started this. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism-why-not-call-a-spade-a-spade/668065.md?page=8)