# creationism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305 "2002-12-28T04:44:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/21 "2002-12-31T02:00:58Z")
Solid sky reference: > [@](#): > > _Genesis 1:6-7_ > Let there be a dome to divide the water and to keep it in two separate places… and it was done. So God made a dome, and it separated the water under it from the water above it. The sun revolves around the Earth: [quote] _Joshua 10:12-13_ Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies…"\* Obviously, the author of _Joshua_ believed that the sun moved around the Earth. It would not be possible to “stop” that which is not moving to begin with. Flat Earth allusions: [quote] _Psalm 24:2_ the world and all that is in it belong to the Lord; the earth and all who live on it are his. He built it on the deep waters beneath the earth and laid its foundations in the ocean depths," [quote] \*Daniel 4:7-8, I saw a tree of great height at the **center of the world**. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the _ends of the earth_. [quote] _Matthew 4:8_ The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence\* (How could he see the whole Earth unless it was flat?) The ancient Hebrews believed in a view of the Earth which consisted of a round, flat disc with a dome over it. They thought that this disc rested on pillars in the ocean. Click [here](http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl2.htm) and scroll down a little to see an illustration of Biblical cosmology ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/22 "2002-12-31T02:03:32Z")
Yee gads, what a crappy job of coding. Sorry about that. :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/23 "2002-12-31T02:09:47Z")
Mmm, thanks, but nothing in there that I didn’t expect. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/24 "2002-12-31T03:25:01Z")
[QUOTE] \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* \*\*Solid sky reference: The sun revolves around the Earth: [quote] _Joshua 10:12-13_ Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon. And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies…"\* Obviously, the author of _Joshua_ believed that the sun moved around the Earth. It would not be possible to “stop” that which is not moving to begin with. Flat Earth allusions: [quote] _Psalm 24:2_ the world and all that is in it belong to the Lord; the earth and all who live on it are his. He built it on the deep waters beneath the earth and laid its foundations in the ocean depths," [quote] \*Daniel 4:7-8, I saw a tree of great height at the **center of the world**. It was large and strong, with its top touching the heavens, and it could be seen from the _ends of the earth_. > [@](#): > > _Matthew 4:8_ > The devil took him (Jesus) to a very high mountain and displayed before him all the kingdoms of the world in their magnificence\* > (How could he see the whole Earth unless it was flat?) > > The ancient Hebrews believed in a view of the Earth which consisted of a round, flat disc with a dome over it. They thought that this disc rested on pillars in the ocean. > > Click [here](http://www.religioustolerance.org/cosmo_bibl2.htm) and scroll down a little to see an illustration of Biblical cosmology \*\* Isn’t there one about the four corners of the earth? I could have sworn there was a verse saying something to that effect… ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/25 "2002-12-31T03:35:58Z")
**Meatros** , I believe there is such a reference in _Job_, but I don’t know the exact verse. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/26 "2002-12-31T20:34:26Z")
No, I do not believe the sun revolves around the round earth. I do believe theres a verse which says the circle of the earth. But thats neither here nor there. As for “cleaned it off”, I read an interpretation of the first verses which implies that God didn’t suddenly create the earth, then humans; it was there a long time (obviously) but was barren and a wasteland. No big deal, I don’t really care if it popped into exsistence 4,000 years ago, I don’t think of it very often. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/27 "2002-12-31T20:51:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > **I do believe theres a verse which says the circle of the earth.** Isaiah 40: 22 > [@](#): > > He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth, and its people are like grasshoppers. > He stretches out the heavens like a canopy, and spreads them out like a tent to live in. The second half of the verse does sort of spoil it, perhaps implying the idea of the sky being a dome. I’d be most interested to hear from Hebrew-fluent dopers re the interpretation and precise meaning of the hebrew word that is rendered _circle_ - I’ve heard vehement argument from Christians saying it actually means _sphere_ and equally vehement argument from others saying that is complete nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/28 "2002-12-31T20:59:32Z")
Like I said, I am not claiming my beleifs as factual, jsut my religious beleifs. I do not advocate teaching them in school. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/29 "2002-12-31T21:18:37Z")
**Solid sky** Could be the sky includes all the known universe and God has this “water” in an extra-dimensional realm which encompasses this universe. **Flat earth** Metaphor. “Four corners” of the earth doesn’t literally mean that the earth has four corners. **Sun revolving around the earth** The verse from Joshua doesn’t state that the sun revolves around the earth. It simply says that Joshua commanded the sun to be still. Maybe the earth simply stopped rotating for a while? (Yes, I know that would cause a bunch of problems, but if God could miraculously cause the earth to stop rotating, I’m sure He could take care of any other problems that would arise from it…) Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Alien2022](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e19adc/32.png) [@Alien2022](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alien2022)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/30 "2002-12-31T21:45:00Z")
ROFL. You just proved exactly what everyone else has been saying. Zev, you just showed, that the Bible cannot be taken literally. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but it just proved what everyone else has been saying. Zev, you had to come up with allegorical meanings in order to make a valid excuse for facts of modern science. Not that I’m bashing Christianity or anything, but the Bible is 2000+ years old. It was written by humans, who had very little understanding of the natural processes that surround them. The book is full of allegorical connections, and anyone that insists that you can still take the book literally is ignorant. Period. I see the Bible as a history book, written from the point of view of the Hebrews. These are their beliefs, and their views on the world granted their limited knowledge. Yet, the fanatics continue to reference science, and knowledge. It’s horrible that they can be so ignorant to the realities of the world. Like in the Chick comic thing. The whole part of atoms is utter crap. Anyone with the most elementary understanding of the interactions between subatomic particles will tell you how wrong the assumptions in the creation argument is. ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/31 "2002-12-31T21:52:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Alien2022 \* > \*\*ROFL. You just proved exactly what everyone else has been saying. Zev, you just showed, that the Bible cannot be taken literally. I’m not saying that’s a bad thing, but it just proved what everyone else has been saying. > > Zev, you had to come up with allegorical meanings in order to make a valid excuse for facts of modern science. Not that I’m bashing Christianity or anything, but the Bible is 2000+ years old. It was written by humans, who had very little understanding of the natural processes that surround them. The book is full of allegorical connections, and anyone that insists that you can still take the book literally is ignorant. Period. \*\* Well, that’s because Orthodox Jews are not biblical literists. We have a long and proud oral tradition regarding how to read the Bible. Without it, many of the commandments, etc. would make no sense. Furthermore, one simply cannot deny that, read simply, the Bible _does_ contain outright contradictions. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Wearia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/13edae/32.png) [@Wearia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wearia)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/32 "2002-12-31T22:33:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by zev\_steinhardt \* > > * * * > > We have a long and proud oral tradition regarding how to read the Bible. Without it, many of the commandments, etc. would make no sense. Furthermore, one simply cannot deny that, read simply, the Bible _does_ contain outright contradictions. > > Zev Steinhardt \*\* [Yep.](http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2002, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/33 "2002-12-31T22:39:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Wearia \* > \*\*[Yep.](http://www.ffrf.org/lfif/contra.html) \*\* Most of those are not outright contradictions, but simply exceptions to a rule. If God gives a rule, and then tells you at one time to do something counter to the rule, then it’s an exception to the rule, not a contradiction. So God telling the Jews to take the gold from Egypt is an exception from the “Do not steal rule.” (It could also have been payment for the many years of slavery). I actually saw one list that listed the prohibition of marrying one’s brother’s wife and then the commandment of the levirate marriage and said that this was a contradiction. It’s not a contradiction, but an exception to the rule. One is not allowed to marry one’s brother’s wife except under specific circumstances set up in the exception. Likewise, there is a time to kill and a time to lie and a time to break the Sabbath. There are very few rules that are absolute. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Rogg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@Rogg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rogg)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/34 "2003-01-01T00:26:45Z")
[http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html](http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/section1.html) Scholarly. ---
**Author:** ![Tangent](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tangent/32/3098_2.png) [@Tangent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tangent)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 7:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/35 "2003-01-01T07:47:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*No big deal, I don’t really care if it popped into exsistence 4,000 years ago, _I don’t think of it very often._ \*\* (italics mine) Herein lies the problem with Creationists. Most of them just don’t think about it too much. They just accept creationism and avoid learning anything that might challenge their beliefs. There is a small but very vocal minority of Christians who proactively preach “scientific creationism” and attack the theories of modern scientists. I can at least respect them for thinking about the problem, however wrong they may be. But the majority of Christians (at least most of the ones I know) will avoid the subjects of evolution and the Big Bang like the plague. I am a teacher (not like the one in that comic strip!) and the worst thing I’ve ever heard any of my students say (actually on two different occasions–both times during discussions of cosmology) was “Why don’t these scientists just leave well enough alone? Why can’t they stop trying to figure all this stuff out?” It made me want to cry. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/36 "2003-01-01T14:49:22Z")
Mangetout, does the Bible **say** the Earth is flat? No. Does it say the Earth is only 6000 years old? No. But vanilla apparently believes that, so she should believe the Earth is flat as well. And, frankly, it comes closer to saying the Earth is flat, as you’ll see below. Here is a little piece that I post when this topic comes up (and I’m around). In fact, last time I posted it was in a thread that you started. 🙂 The late Isaac Asimov wrote an article about this subject, “The Circle of the Earth.” It is some 15 pages long, but I’ve done my best to summarize it here for you: In Isaiah 40:22, the Bible (King James version) says, “It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth…” A circle, as you well know, is a two-dimensional figure; a sphere would be the proper three-dimensional structure. Obviously, the Earth is a sphere (well, pretty close) NOT a circle. Another verse to the same effect is a passage in the Book of Proverbs, 8:27. “When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth.” A compass draws a circle – a flat circle. So, as Asimov says, “we can imagine God marking out the flat, circular disk of the world in this fashion.” But even “compass” is not the best translation from the Hebrew. The Revised Standard Version of the Bible has the verse as: “When he established the heavens, I was there, when he drew a circle on the face of the deep.” It’s even more specifically a flat circle. As other evidence, the rest of the Isaiah 40:22 cited earlier says, “…that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in.” As we know, a tent is a piece of material “spread outward above and then down on all sides until it touches the ground. A tent is NOT a spherical structure that surrounds a smaller spherical structure. No tent in existence has ever been that.” (I.A.) And, of course, the ground underneath a tent is flat. Thus, according to this verse, humans live inside the tent of the heavens, on the flat Earth. Now, of course with a flat Earth, what keeps everything from falling? Well, it rests on something. The Bible does mention, rather casually, what the Earth rests upon. Asimov contends that the Bible doesn’t go into more detail because everybody in the time period when it was written was assumed to “know” that the Earth is flat, the heavens are a tent, and the Earth rests upon pillars. But, like I said, there is a casual mention. In the 38th chapter of Job, Job questions God about injustice and evil. God says to him, "Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding. Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the cornerstone thereof? (Job 38:4-6) So, what are these “foundations”? Well, since the Bible writers had never even heard of such things as mantle and the liquid iron core of the earth, and since they NEVER refer to the regions under the Earth’s surface as composed of rock and metal, it obviously isn’t that. So, we must come to the conclusion that the “foundations” of the Earth are the objects upon which the flat Earth rests. Elsewhere in the Book of Job, Job says about God, “The pillars of heaven tremble and are astonished at his reproof.” So, it looks like we’ve found the “foundations” – the “pillars of heaven.” There was more to the article, mostly dealing with hell below the circle of the Earth, but I think the point about the Earth being flat according to a literalist reading of the Bible has been made. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2003, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/37 "2003-01-01T14:50:21Z")
vanilla said: > [@](#): > > Like I said, I am not claiming my beleifs as factual, jsut my religious beleifs. > I do not advocate teaching them in school. Well, that puts you one step ahead of most creationists. But it also begs for the question of why you believe it, in the face of all scientific evidence to the contrary. ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/38 "2003-01-02T07:33:31Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > Like I said, I am not claiming my beleifs as factual, jsut my religious beleifs. Hm, but Creationism is supposedly “scientific,” according to outfits such as the [ICR (Institute for Creation Research)](http://www.icr.org/). ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/39 "2003-01-02T15:05:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _vanilla_ > Like I said, I am not claiming my beleifs as factual, jsut my religious beleifs. > I do not advocate teaching them in school. Faith is believing what you know ain’t so. –Mark Twain 😉 ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2003, 5:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/40 "2003-01-02T17:06:24Z")
David B, I never said i beleived the earth was 6,000 years old. I beleive the earth is around billions of years old. I don’t beleive people have bene on it billions of years, however. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305.md?page=3)