# creationism **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 28, 2002, 4:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305 "2002-12-28T04:44:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![ffabris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a87d85/32.png) [@ffabris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ffabris)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/121 "2003-01-10T01:41:02Z")
Meatros, Ben: your posts made my point much better than I did. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 1:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/122 "2003-01-10T01:41:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\*Like I said, we only recently learned how to make diamonds. That doesn’t mean that diamonds prove the existence of God. \*\* Just a quick hijack-does this mean we can **make** diamonds and we no longer have to rely on our untrustworthy jewelers?😃 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/123 "2003-01-10T02:03:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ffabris \* > \*\*Meatros, Ben: your posts made my point much better than I did. \*\* You do me too much credit, I’m not an expert-it just seems to me that GOM’s argument isn’t logically consistent. That doesn’t mean it is, I could be wrong. Ben on the otherhand, is an expert, at least as far as I can tell. If he’s not, I want to make him the next John Edwards because he’s a FANTASTIC liar.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/124 "2003-01-10T02:08:10Z")
> [@](#): > > _GOM_ > Okay. You must be smarter than me. (Not hard to do.) What, from a scientific standpoint, would be your test to locate God? One way to scientifically “search” for God would simply be to investigate instances where supernatural intervention has been alleged by others. For instance, we can (and do) attempt to verify “miracles,” angels, faith healers, demonic possession, etc. Science does not rule out such phenomena _a priori_ and most scientists would only be too happy to find some indisputable evidence of God, or any other paranormal phenomenon. Thus far they have been unsuccessful. > [@](#): > > If you are merely searching for “gods”, as in supernatural entities, those you can find. It might not be scientific, but many people have encountered the supernatural through the ouija board. In most cases they have regretted playing around with something dangerous. I strongly suggest you read some accounts of this, instead of attempting this yourself. Learn from the mistakes of others. You are correct that this is not scientific. Do you have any kind of cite for any authenticated cases of supernatural entities being encountered through ouija boards? I believe it was the great Cecil Adams who once raised the point that people who operate ouija boards while blindfolded produce only gibberish for answers. So why is it that blindfolding the humans would stymie supernatural demons? > [@](#): > > _Me_ > You _believe_ God is “revealed” in the Bible. That doesn’t make it a fact. > [@](#): > > _Gom_ > It does for me, and for millions of other Christians. When you meet God, then you will understand. No, it makes it a_belief_ for you and millions of others. The fact that you believe it, however sincerely, does not make it true. (nor does disbelief make it _un_true) belief and knowledge are not the same thing. I think that **Voyager** , **Meatros** and **Ben** have adequately addressed your points about abiogenesis and intelligent design. ---
**Author:** ![x-ray\_vision](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/x-ray_vision/32/351_2.png) [@x-ray\_vision](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/x-ray_vision)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/125 "2003-01-10T05:53:10Z")
If days are “millions of years”, I guess when God rested on the seventh day, he took a hell of a catnap! ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 11:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/126 "2003-01-10T11:35:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by x-ray vision \* > \*\*If days are “millions of years”, I guess when God rested on the seventh day, he took a hell of a catnap! \*\* Of course! Why do you think we don’t hear from him anymore.😃 ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/127 "2003-01-10T11:49:33Z")
Does anyone actually seriously hold the beleif that the 6 day creation account in Genesis can still be **held as completely literal** and reconciled to geological and fossil evidence by allowing the term ‘days’ to mean periods of time (much) longer than a day? - I’m really interested to know if anyone here holds that view, because I have some questions on it. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/128 "2003-01-10T12:51:25Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Does anyone actually seriously hold the beleif that the 6 day creation account in Genesis can still be **held as completely literal** and reconciled to geological and fossil evidence by allowing the term ‘days’ to mean periods of time (much) longer than a day? - I’m really interested to know if anyone here holds that view, because I have some questions on it. \*\* On this messageboard? I don’t think so. However if you want messageboards with YEC I can provide them to you (I’m involved in another messageboard-debating this exact thing/not as well as I’d like to BTW). So in answer to your question, yes people still seriously hold the YEC belief. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/129 "2003-01-10T13:33:56Z")
Sure, but YECs most often just assert that all the fossil and geological evidence is being misinterpreted; The ‘day is as a thousand years’ reconciliation is not something I’ve yet seen anyone seriously pursue. ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/130 "2003-01-10T13:42:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Sure, but YECs most often just assert that all the fossil and geological evidence is being misinterpreted; The ‘day is as a thousand years’ reconciliation is not something I’ve yet seen anyone seriously pursue. \*\* It’s a little worse than that. Check out a poster by the name of Bettawrekonize on this WB: [http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000128.html](http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000128.html) ---
**Author:** ![zev\_steinhardt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/97f17d/32.png) [@zev\_steinhardt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zev_steinhardt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/131 "2003-01-10T14:45:38Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Does anyone actually seriously hold the beleif that the 6 day creation account in Genesis can still be **held as completely literal** and reconciled to geological and fossil evidence by allowing the term ‘days’ to mean periods of time (much) longer than a day? - I’m really interested to know if anyone here holds that view, because I have some questions on it. \*\* Gerald Schroder wrote a book called [Genesis and the Big Bang: The Discovery of Harmony Between Modern Science and the Bible](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0553354132/qid=1042209833/sr=8-3/ref=sr_8_3/103-6523801-6808649?v=glance&s=books&n=507846). I didn’t read the entire book, but the gist of it is that both the 6-day account and the 4-billion year account can be literally true by positing that God uses a different frame of reference than man. Zev Steinhardt ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/132 "2003-01-10T15:08:56Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Meatros \* > \*\*It’s a little worse than that. Check out a poster by the name of Bettawrekonize on this WB: > [http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000128.html](http://creationtalk.com/ubb/Forum2/HTML/000128.html) \*\* Wow! My brain almost melted reading that one; it would be funny if it weren’t for the fact that there’s a human being spouting all that absurdity. [sub]And this isn’t me trying to be a ‘junior mod’ or anything, but please people, however tempting it might be to sign up over there to ‘sort out’ **Bettawrekonize** , let’s not do anything that might result in a board war.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/133 "2003-01-10T15:22:59Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Wow! My brain almost melted reading that one; it would be funny if it weren’t for the fact that there’s a human being spouting all that absurdity. > > [sub]And this isn’t me trying to be a ‘junior mod’ or anything, but please people, however tempting it might be to sign up over there to ‘sort out’ **Bettawrekonize** , let’s not do anything that might result in a board war.[/sub] \*\* I got so frusterated dealing with Betta. I think my brain is damaged. The thing of it is, I don’t think ANY evidence would help him. BTW-this isn’t even the worst “board” I’ve discovered… Does that make you scared? It frightens me… ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/134 "2003-01-10T15:34:44Z")
Perhaps you should just answer his question; why didn’t you answer his question? He’s waiting for someone to answer his question. Why don’t you show him the evidence… no, not _that_ evidence, not the evidence that _you_ believe concludes the issue, some _other_ evidence that you have to find somewhere. On second thoughts, why don’t you just answer his question 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2003, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/135 "2003-01-10T15:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mangetout \* > \*\*Perhaps you should just answer his question; why didn’t you answer his question? He’s waiting for someone to answer his question. Why don’t you show him the evidence… no, not _that_ evidence, not the evidence that _you_ believe concludes the issue, some _other_ evidence that you have to find somewhere. On second thoughts, why don’t you just answer his question 😉 \*\* 😃 I like where he concludes that he has “won” all of the arguments he’s been in. I admit, I’m not a good debater. I’m not up on all of the science. I could still learn a lot of things, but JESUS at least I’m willing to learn-you know? ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/136 "2003-01-11T00:42:01Z")
FWIW, there’s a one-act play at the II which encapsulates a number of our usual anti-ID arguments: [http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=255](http://www.secweb.org/asset.asp?AssetID=255) (It’s not well written, IMO, but I thought I’d post it here anyway.) I should point out, however, that this thread is ostensibly about _creationism_, not design. “Creationism” is usually defined as a rejection of common descent in favor of separate creation. IDists who believe in common descent can get quite snippy if you confuse them with creationists. GOM, would you care to defend your belief in special creation, and disprove common descent? BTW, Meatros, is your username pronounced “Me-at-ros” or “meat-ros”? ---
**Author:** ![ffabris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a87d85/32.png) [@ffabris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ffabris)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/137 "2003-01-11T10:51:15Z")
meatros, having read through several of the threads over on CreationTalk, I’d like to say that I am in awe of the patience you (and others) have displayed with bittawhassit. I would have given up in disgust far sooner! That said, might I suggest that you are beating your head against a brick wall. That person simply doesn’t deserve to have you waste your time and intelligence on him/her. Betawhassit’s mind is locked in a chastity belt and the key has long since been lost in a peat bog. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Urban\_Ranger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/e9c0ed/32.png) [@Urban\_Ranger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urban_Ranger)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/138 "2003-01-11T17:41:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by GOM \* > 3. It does for me, and for millions of other Christians. When you meet God, then you will understand. I cannot do it for you. Accepting God is a personal thing. Rejecting Him is also a personal thing. You don’t get to do it as part of a group. Each one of us will die eventually. You might intellectually agree with that statement but, as most of us do, you could easily think it applies to other person. When you die, will you be ready my friend? Oh yes, the standard non-reply. Lets put it this way. I am not expecting any afterlife at all, so if there were one, I would be getting more than I asked for. On the other hand, what if there is no afterlife? Will **you** be ready? ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/139 "2003-01-11T20:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* BTW, Meatros, is your username pronounced “Me-at-ros” or “meat-ros”? \*\* Now this is the question I have often struggled with. In the begining, when I thought up Meatros it was pronounced “meat-ros”, although there is a certain charm to “Me-ate-ros” that I have only recently begun to consider… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Meatros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Meatros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Meatros)\ **Post date:** [January 11, 2003, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305/140 "2003-01-11T20:24:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by ffabris \* > \*\*meatros, having read through several of the threads over on CreationTalk, I’d like to say that I am in awe of the patience you (and others) have displayed with bittawhassit. I would have given up in disgust far sooner! > > That said, might I suggest that you are beating your head against a brick wall. That person simply doesn’t deserve to have you waste your time and intelligence on him/her. Betawhassit’s mind is locked in a chastity belt and the key has long since been lost in a peat bog. :rolleyes: \*\* Yes, beating my head against a wall would make me feel better and get more accomplished-I know this. To tell the truth their are a few other posters on that board whom I think might have a chance to change. I’m probably just kidding myself though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationism/145305.md?page=8)