# Creationist Attempts to Prove the Existence of God / Denial of Evolution \[merged threads\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889 "2012-02-05T20:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 15, 2012, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/241 "2012-02-15T23:15:22Z")
> [@dorsk188](#): > > You’re dangerously close to a rubber-glue analogy. I never said it was singular. I actually think it was probably almost exclusively plural, then later generations tried to reconcile it as being singular, too. Correction: it was used as a collective noun (like people or children) which is inherently plural, but seems to be used as a singular. I don’t know enough about Hebrew to verify that (what I do know is that Hebrew seems insanely vague compared to modern English). It doesn’t matter how few people there are, it’s always more than one person. One more thing about **GEEPERS** website about near death experiences (I refuse to acronymize this until it’s actually proven to be a topic worth discussing, and therefore abbreviating). This is from the intro to the “Evidences” page. > [@](#): > > A scientifically controlled NDE that can be repeated which provides such evidence would be the scientific discovery of all time. However, science does not yet have the exact tools to accomplish this. But, science is coming very, very close. This kind of evidence and others provide very strong circumstantial evidence for the survival of consciousness. Why not just wait until that scientifically repeatable experiment if finished before putting so much emphasis on this as the knock-down argument against those vile nasty atheists? Apparently it’s coming very, very soon. ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/242 "2012-02-16T11:40:37Z")
If at any point someone wants to check in and explain how it’s already been proven that there are uncaused events, please do. Putting the words “quantum” and “foam” together to form “quantum foam” is not an explanation of how it’s already been proven that there are uncaused events, nor is asserting that quantum foam is an example of an uncaused event anything more than an unbacked assertion. So, who’s going to step in and explain to this layman how we know that uncaused events happen? Plenty of people up-thread claiming as such. In the meantime, I’ll continue to believe that _something_ caused the Big Bang, and that if _something_ caused space time and matter to exist, then said _something_ is, by absolute definition, spaceless, timeless and immaterial. ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/243 "2012-02-16T11:43:36Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I simply want an atheist to demonstrate that he/she has the ability to consider pro-Christian evidence with an open mind. Nothing that I’ve seen in this forum suggests this. I see blind baseless acceptance of any scientific theory as fact as long as it goes against Christianity. If the Bible warned against global warming, you would have a legion of scientists arguing that global warming is not real. I think the difference between a believer and an Atheist is that the Atheist looks for facts, others just look at beliefs. One child( for an example) will believe there is a monster under the bed,another will look to see if there is one. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/244 "2012-02-16T11:48:39Z")
Now that’s just silly. Everybody knows that the under-the-bed-monster will get you if you see him, especially if you’re leaning down to peer under the bed at that moment. I mean, what better way to get you than by lunging at your face? Jeez, what irresponsible advice. The only reliable defense is to pull the covers up over your head. Monsters are well known to be unable to penetrate a properly erected covers-shield. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/245 "2012-02-16T12:59:27Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Typical atheist response to trash all over what is really a beautiful uplifting story. I know, right? It’s just like how they belittled and trashed the story of the poor boy who had a burlap sack for a body. This despite the fact that it was reported on the internet. Why would someone lie about something so sad and so serious? ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/246 "2012-02-16T14:32:11Z")
> [@monavis](#): > > I think the difference between a believer and an Atheist is that the Atheist looks for facts, others just look at beliefs. One child( for an example) will believe there is a monster under the bed,another will look to see if there is one. An atheist will deny facts if they support Christianity. Yet, I have no doubt you will accept without question any atheist commentary that goes against Christianity. Another problem is “facts” can always be distorted to meet any agenda. This is why we have conspiracy theorists. For example, people can distort facts to suggest that the moon landing never took place. It’s hard to prove anything so airtight that you can’t poke a hole of doubt into the fabric. Just for fun, how about a little test. Proverbs 22:7 - The rich rules over the poor, and the borrower is the slave of the lender. I call that a fact. If people had just listen to this simple advice, our economy wouldn’t be in the toliet right now. Can you at least agree that this verse speaks the truth? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/247 "2012-02-16T14:51:15Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > … Just for fun, how about a little test. Proverbs 22:7 - The rich rules over the poor, > and the borrower is the slave of the lender. > I call that a fact. … Can you at least agree that this verse speaks the truth? If you owe the bank $100 that’s your problem. If you owe the bank $100 million, that’s the bank’s problem. J. Paul Getty I’m going with _not the truth_ (and JPG) here. CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/248 "2012-02-16T14:51:21Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Just for fun, how about a little test. Proverbs 22:7 - The rich rules over the poor, > and the borrower is the slave of the lender. > I call that a fact. If people had just listen to this simple advice, our economy wouldn’t be in the toliet right now. Can you at least agree that this verse speaks the truth? So, you’re looking for literal truth except when you’re not? You’re saying that that passage is a metaphor for fiscal prudence and not meant to be taken literally? To me, the literal meaning is a support of absolute plutocracy. No, I don’t think the country would be better if we were the literal slaves of the lenders. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/249 "2012-02-16T14:51:29Z")
nevermind ---
**Author:** ![Voodoo1120](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Voodoo1120](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voodoo1120)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/250 "2012-02-16T14:58:54Z")
creationists claim that all humans are descended from 8 people 6 thousand years ago Thats one thing in the bible that i never understood and maybe someone can clear this up for me. Ok here goes: the bible says God made Adam and Eve, then they had Cane and Abel. Cane was jealous of Abel and killed him out in the field and then went and layed with his wife. Where did his wife come from and who was she? Was his wife his mother? Can anyone explain? ---
**Author:** ![simster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/simster/32/1047_2.png) [@simster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/simster)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/251 "2012-02-16T15:15:40Z")
> [@Voodoo1120](#): > > creationists claim that all humans are descended from 8 people 6 thousand years ago > Thats one thing in the bible that i never understood and maybe someone can clear this up for me. Ok here goes: the bible says God made Adam and Eve, then they had Cane and Abel. Cane was jealous of Abel and killed him out in the field and then went and layed with his wife. Where did his wife come from and who was she? Was his wife his mother? Can anyone explain? classic answer would be that the bible did not record the daughter(s) births, only the sons. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/252 "2012-02-16T15:21:29Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Yet, I have no doubt you will accept without question any atheist commentary that goes against Christianity. So you keep saying - without evidence. > [@](#): > > Another problem is “facts” can always be distorted to meet any agenda. Unlike Scripture, which can’t be distorted or misinterpreted in any way. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/253 "2012-02-16T15:26:18Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > If at any point someone wants to check in and explain how it’s already been proven that there are uncaused events, please do. Putting the words “quantum” and “foam” together to form “quantum foam” is not an explanation of how it’s already been proven that there are uncaused events, nor is asserting that quantum foam is an example of an uncaused event anything more than an unbacked assertion. > > So, who’s going to step in and explain to this layman how we know that uncaused events happen? Plenty of people up-thread claiming as such. > > In the meantime, I’ll continue to believe that _something_ caused the Big Bang, and that if _something_ caused space time and matter to exist, then said _something_ is, by absolute definition, spaceless, timeless and immaterial. Uncaused events haven’t been \*proven \*yet, per se. In quantum mechanics, when you dig down deep enough, things happen that appear random. As in, there is no good reason why something acts the way it does. It just _does_ (i.e. “Shut up and calculate!”). It’s \*indistinguishable \*from randomness. The randomness is still explainable in terms of things like distributions, and we can make probability models that describe things very well and make predictions with great accuracy, but the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is an \*intrinsic \*problem that has absolutely nothing to do with the precision of our measurement instruments. It is a problem that fundamentally prevents us from knowing as much information as we’d like. The problem most people have is that, well, we live in a macroscopic world. We observe events and objects and how they operate and interact, and from this we construct our intuition of how physics operates. However, that intuition is nearly worthless at the quantum level, where reality works in bizarre ways that is at complete odds with what our intuition would tell us – and yet we can measure it and verify it with amazing strength. So it’s not going to do you much good to try to make predictions about quantum concepts using your intuition about the macroscopic world, because it won’t be accurate. It’s hugely mind-bending to think about the notion that existence just _is_ and didn’t necessarily need a cause, but that’s only because our intuition is so used to the idea that events are caused by previous events. The honest answer to “What caused the universe?” is simply “We don’t know yet. We don’t even know if it makes sense to ask.” Nobody knows for sure yet. But that doesn’t mean you can simply invoke God and get around it. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/254 "2012-02-16T15:26:44Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So, you’re looking for literal truth except when you’re not? You’re saying that that passage is a metaphor for fiscal prudence and not meant to be taken literally? To me, the literal meaning is a support of absolute plutocracy. No, I don’t think the country would be better if we were the literal slaves of the lenders. Haha, I knew you couldn’t do it. My point is proven once again. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/255 "2012-02-16T15:28:04Z")
So, you do think the country would be better if we were the literal slaves of the lenders. Gotcha. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/256 "2012-02-16T15:32:35Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > So you keep saying - without evidence. > Unlike Scripture, which can’t be distorted or misinterpreted in any way. It would be simple to prove me wrong. Post something Richard Dawkins has said against Christianity that you don’t agree with. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/257 "2012-02-16T15:33:16Z")
You know what test actually counts around here? Making a coherent argument and supporting it. ---
**Author:** ![GEEPERS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c89c15/32.png) [@GEEPERS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GEEPERS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/258 "2012-02-16T15:36:46Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > So, you do think the country would be better if we were the literal slaves of the lenders. Gotcha. Atheists resort to sarcasm and mockery when cornered in an argument. Smokes and mirrors to try and appear more intelligent than Christians. You know good and well that this verse isn’t taking about being a physical slave to a lender. You are enslaved financially and emotionally. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/259 "2012-02-16T15:42:46Z")
If this thread has turned into someone’s unsubstantiated accusations about atheists and how this board is made up of them can we get it moved to The BBQ Pit, or at least get this side topic separated off into a new thread in The BBQ Pit? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/260 "2012-02-16T15:43:57Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > It would be simple to prove me wrong. It’s been simple to prove you wrong about all kinds of things, which is why a lot of people have done it. But getting you to acknowledge it and move on with the conversation has been like pulling teeth. Every time someone pokes a hole in something you’ve said, we’re treated to complaints about atheists being unfair and unreasonable (because they all are, all the time) instead of further arguments, and then a new topic gets introduced. This has become a habit already and you can see people are exasperated by it. I’m not interested in taking or passing any test and I’m not jumping through hoops for you. You can search my posts for my opinion about Richard Dawkins if you’re interested. Stand by your arguments or admit their flaws. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889.md?page=14)