# Creationist Attempts to Prove the Existence of God / Denial of Evolution \[merged threads\] **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 5, 2012, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889 "2012-02-05T20:47:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/281 "2012-02-16T20:22:30Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Wasn’t presenting it as evidence of divinity. I just wanted to see if an atheist could just for once, one time agree with a Christian or admit that the Bible is true about something. > > Then perhaps, I could take your argument seriously. > > The reality is atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Why is that? Now if I subscribed to the atheist way of thinking, I would be out there trying to squeeze every drop of enjoyment from this life since you can simply cease to exist at any second. Poof, you’re gone. Doesn’t make a bit of difference what you do in this lifetime. I certainly wouldn’t be wasting time on a debate forum. And yet here you are-not debating. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/282 "2012-02-16T20:24:00Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The reality is atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Why is that? Now if I subscribed to the atheist way of thinking You don’t understand how atheists think or why they do anything. How about asking them about it instead of telling them what you’d do in their shoes? ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/283 "2012-02-16T20:25:20Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I just wanted to see if an atheist could just for once, one time agree with a Christian or admit that the Bible is true about something. > > Then perhaps, I could take your argument seriously. What’s there to “admit”? It’s right about some things and wrong about a lot of things. Jesus existed, for one. A lot of people think he was entirely fictional. ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/284 "2012-02-16T20:33:42Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Wasn’t presenting it as evidence of divinity. I just wanted to see if an atheist could just for once, one time agree with a Christian or admit that the Bible is true about something. > > Then perhaps, I could take your argument seriously. > > The reality is atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Why is that? Now if I subscribed to the atheist way of thinking, I would be out there trying to squeeze every drop of enjoyment from this life since you can simply cease to exist at any second. Poof, you’re gone. Doesn’t make a bit of difference what you do in this lifetime. I certainly wouldn’t be wasting time on a debate forum. You keep going on about this cartoon image of atheists that is simply ridiculous. Atheists don’t argue that there is no valid information in the Bible, or Quran or Tao Te Ching. They argue those texts do not necessarily provide sufficient evidence in and of themselves to validate that their stated _theological_ beliefs are a reflection of material reality. Exactly the same way Christians do not consider that the oral tradition of the Iroquois provides sufficient evidence that the world was created by various anthropomorphic animal spirits. The Bible contains human views that may or may not be applicable through the ages. But simply because they are in the Bible doesn’t necessarily make them right, moral or valid. ---
**Author:** ![Bruce\_Daddy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Bruce\_Daddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bruce_Daddy)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/285 "2012-02-16T20:34:23Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > The reality is atheists have devoted a lot of time and energy to attack Christianity with an uncanny zeal. Why is that? Now if I subscribed to the atheist way of thinking, I would be out there trying to squeeze every drop of enjoyment from this life since you can simply cease to exist at any second. Poof, you’re gone. Doesn’t make a bit of difference what you do in this lifetime. I certainly wouldn’t be wasting time on a debate forum. If I thought there would be eternal consequences to my “worldly” actions I would spend every second of my day studying every single religion ever until I died due to the fear I had chosen the wrong one and was pissing off the right god. I sure as hell would never watch a football game, go to a concert or post on a message board. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/286 "2012-02-16T21:03:48Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > I just wanted to see if an atheist could just for once, one time agree with a Christian or admit that the Bible is true about something. Wow. That statement shows a lot about your attitude toward this and the larger debate. I notice how selectively you respond, but here is a quote I personally find to be true: > [@](#): > > Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves. Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles? Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit. A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit. ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/287 "2012-02-16T21:08:07Z")
> [@SiXSwordS](#): > > [A]theism nearly always indicates a healthy independence of mind and, indeed, a healthy mind. > > I disagree with Dawkins on this. Curious what your rationale is for this, because for the most part I would agree with it. ---
**Author:** ![SiXSwordS](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/49beb7/32.png) [@SiXSwordS](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SiXSwordS)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/288 "2012-02-16T21:17:30Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Curious what your rationale is for this, because for the most part I would agree with it. Hmm— that would almost seem to imply that all atheists aren’t in lockstep and in total agreement on all things including how to approach debates with those who hold alternate viewpoints? Did you read your manual? ---
**Author:** ![Grey](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/b782af/32.png) [@Grey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grey)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/289 "2012-02-16T21:31:50Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Curious what your rationale is for this, because for the most part I would agree with it. Oh you can be as non believing as all get out but still slavishly submissive to authority which strikes me as unhealthy. I’d say atheism is an emergent property of a skeptical and rational mind and a \*skeptical \*mind is likely healthier than a non skeptical one. Dawkins goes too far in ascribing the healthiness to the end result rather than the mechanism. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/290 "2012-02-16T21:50:48Z")
> [@Voodoo1120](#): > > . . . the bible says God made Adam and Eve, then they had Cane and Abel. Cane was jealous of Abel and killed him out in the field and then went and layed with his wife. Where did his wife come from and who was she? . . . [Easy as pie.](http://www.neatorama.com/2008/06/17/this-is-it-evolution-and-creationism-combined-into-a-coherent-model/) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/291 "2012-02-16T22:08:27Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [Easy as pie.](http://www.neatorama.com/2008/06/17/this-is-it-evolution-and-creationism-combined-into-a-coherent-model/) Already seriously proposed-see the link in post #268…and weep. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/292 "2012-02-16T23:17:07Z")
Incidentally, [Richard Dawkins](http://youtu.be/EJtCqjUUHG0) has a lot of good things to say about the King James Bible. He speaks often about its literary merits (as we do today about the works of Homer), but only objects to claiming it as divinely inspired or a source of morality (as we may similarly object about the Iliad or Odyssey). Some may find [this discussion](http://youtu.be/5hxR0lQzNSI)interesting, as well. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/293 "2012-02-16T23:17:14Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Wasn’t presenting it as evidence of divinity. I just wanted to see if an atheist could just for once, one time agree with a Christian or admit that the Bible is true about something. I’m getting the impression that you have a very digital view - that anyone who doesn’t think the Bible is 100% correct must think it 100% wrong. That is absurd. The Bible has lots of things right - the later kings really lived, and the Maccabean revolt really happened, though we see a biased view of it. As is usual. Do you acknowledge that any parts of the Bible are wrong? ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 16, 2012, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/294 "2012-02-16T23:25:14Z")
Here’s a test for **GEEPERS**. Seeing as I answered his test, let’s see if he will reciprocate. Do you believe the _Iliad_ is true? Or do you believe it is not true? > [@Voyager](#): > > I’m getting the impression that you have a very digital view… Now I’ve got the image of a person with fingers for eyes… Thanks for that. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/295 "2012-02-17T01:00:02Z")
> [@Trinopus](#): > > [Easy as pie.](http://www.neatorama.com/2008/06/17/this-is-it-evolution-and-creationism-combined-into-a-coherent-model/) Wow, that is an amazing illustration. What I got from this is evolved girls are _sexxxy_… ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/296 "2012-02-17T01:18:03Z")
> [@Grey](#): > > Oh you can be as non believing as all get out but still slavishly submissive to authority which strikes me as unhealthy. I’d say atheism is an emergent property of a skeptical and rational mind and a \*skeptical \*mind is likely healthier than a non skeptical one. Dawkins goes too far in ascribing the healthiness to the end result rather than the mechanism. Fair enough – I’d agree with this ---
**Author:** ![Cheshire\_Human](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Cheshire\_Human](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheshire_Human)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/297 "2012-02-17T01:57:01Z")
> [@GEEPERS](#): > > Literal or not, Proverbs is warning you to stay away from debt. Yet, we live in an economic system that encourages and even forces you to take on debt if you want a good credit score. Why do you need any kind of credit score at all, let alone a good one, if you are supposed to stay away from debt? A credit score’s only purpose is to determine how much debt (if any) a potential lender can trust you with. If you avoid debt, why do you care about your credit score? > [@GEEPERS](#): > > Now if I subscribed to the atheist way of thinking, I would be out there trying to squeeze every drop of enjoyment from this life since you can simply cease to exist at any second. Poof, you’re gone. Doesn’t make a bit of difference what you do in this lifetime. I certainly wouldn’t be wasting time on a debate forum. Does it never occur to you that maybe an atheist might get enjoyment out of “wasting time on a debate forum”? ---
**Author:** ![FixMyIgnorance](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7feea3/32.png) [@FixMyIgnorance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FixMyIgnorance)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/298 "2012-02-17T01:59:23Z")
The time you enjoy wasting = never wasted time ---
**Author:** ![KellyCriterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b3f665/32.png) [@KellyCriterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KellyCriterion)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/299 "2012-02-17T05:38:02Z")
> [@FixMyIgnorance](#): > > Uncaused events haven’t been \*proven \*yet, per se. > > In quantum mechanics, when you dig down deep enough, things happen that appear random. As in, there is no good reason why something acts the way it does. It just _does_ (i.e. “Shut up and calculate!”). It’s \*indistinguishable \*from randomness. > > The randomness is still explainable in terms of things like distributions, and we can make probability models that describe things very well and make predictions with great accuracy, but the Heisenberg Uncertainty Principle is an \*intrinsic \*problem that has absolutely nothing to do with the precision of our measurement instruments. It is a problem that fundamentally prevents us from knowing as much information as we’d like. > > The problem most people have is that, well, we live in a macroscopic world. We observe events and objects and how they operate and interact, and from this we construct our intuition of how physics operates. However, that intuition is nearly worthless at the quantum level, where reality works in bizarre ways that is at complete odds with what our intuition would tell us – and yet we can measure it and verify it with amazing strength. > > So it’s not going to do you much good to try to make predictions about quantum concepts using your intuition about the macroscopic world, because it won’t be accurate. It’s hugely mind-bending to think about the notion that existence just _is_ and didn’t necessarily need a cause, but that’s only because our intuition is so used to the idea that events are caused by previous events. > > The honest answer to “What caused the universe?” is simply “We don’t know yet. We don’t even know if it makes sense to ask.” Nobody knows for sure yet. But that doesn’t mean you can simply invoke God and get around it. Right, so as you’ve basically alluded to here, “unknown causes” and behaviour that “resembles randomness” is not evidence that such events are uncaused. All we can say is that such events have no known cause and or/resemble randomness. Hence, my original post from page 1 stands: > [@](#): > > I think the “you can’t get something from nothing, therefore something must be eternal” is the grounds for the most convincing argument in favour of a Creator. I hear from multiple sources how quantum physics has “proven” you can get something from nothing, but until someone can at least explain the basis of that particular concept to a layman like me, I’m throwing in with the “causation only” crowd. If people want to have faith, based on no evidence, that Big Bangs can happen without a cause, they’re obviously free to do so. I, personally, don’t have enough faith to believe such things. ---
**Author:** ![dorsk188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f05b48/32.png) [@dorsk188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorsk188)\ **Post date:** [February 17, 2012, 6:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889/300 "2012-02-17T06:35:07Z")
> [@KellyCriterion](#): > > I, personally, don’t have enough faith to believe such things. You’re free to believe what you want, but don’t try to pass off that your uncaused timeless extra-universal sentient being that makes universes is somehow on the favorable side of Ockham’s razor. Not when an uncaused timeless universe is in the mix (not to mention the unknown permutations of possibilities that have yet to be considered). No one here has claimed to know the earliest status of the universe with the kind of certitude that rivals your “undying devotion”. We have repeatedly shown that modern science does not reject the possibility of uncaused phenomena, but your reaction is to assert that “they must have some unknown cause we have yet to discover…” (because your beliefs require it to be so). The faith in this conversation is all yours, and you shouldn’t pretend otherwise. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationist-attempts-to-prove-the-existence-of-god-denial-of-evolution-merged-threads/611889.md?page=16)