# Creationists Call for Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2000, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324 "2000-10-02T12:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/181 "2000-10-30T04:22:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*Ben, to JonF: > > > [@](#): > > > > a few months ago, I had gotten you and Navigator confused > > Yow! :eek: \*\* Yes, I know. In my defense, I must say that there _were_ some moments of cognitive dissonance… -Ben ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/182 "2000-10-30T04:26:18Z")
Ben said: > [@](#): > > It’s funny- I make an _honest error_ about the date when a message was posted, and Navigator insults me in public. Meanwhile, Mr. Anderson _bears false witness_ against others- an actual sin, unlike my own gaffe- and Nav (apparently) takes him aside, privately, to gently instruct him in the ways of Christ. Sheesh! Which goes along with what I described earlier. It’s okay to lie as long as you lie for Christ. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/183 "2000-10-30T05:01:40Z")
Just for information, I believe Ghoti has been seriously ill, rather than simply not responding. Navigator seems to be a reasonable debater, to me, but then I really haven’t debated much. Our theological positions are intellectually dissimilar, as we found. However, he seems able to simply take that as it exists, and move our discussions to other matters. I do think he does believe that some that went to the Parlor went there with preconceived attitudes. I think he might be right, but I also think some people do keep their attitudes in check. All and all it might have been better to simply keep in mind that we all have attitudes, and we do tend to judge others by our perception of the “company they keep.” I was not really surprised at the very small number of posters who responded to the discussions in Order Here First. The rest of the board is not at all like this one. Keep in mind that you can put an entire months posts on some of those areas on one screen. On this board, you can’t get you answer posted before three or four others have already responded. We should avoid judging the group by the posts of one member, or any of the annoying trolls, unless we all want to be judged by the standard of “He whom we do not name.” I would like to make one thing clear, though. Wherever I post, now, or in the future, I am not a representative of any other board upon which I have posted. I used to post on the New York Times on the Web Forums. I was not one of “their” posters. I still do put up an occasional haiku, there, but when I do, I am not one of “those Straight Dope posters.” I am just me. If someone chooses to consider me part of a group, they are doing so out of their own perceptions, not mine. Tris ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/184 "2000-10-30T12:42:32Z")
Tris said: > [@](#): > > Just for information, I believe Ghoti has been seriously ill, rather than simply not responding. I’m sorry to hear that. Like I said, I did wonder where he was. > [@](#): > > Navigator seems to be a reasonable debater, to me He has certainly been more reasonable than most of the other folks there, if only because he admits that he believes in creationism because that is his religious belief, and doesn’t usually try to justify it with bogus claims of evidence and the like (as one example). > [@](#): > > However, he seems able to simply take that as it exists, and move our discussions to other matters. Precisely. > [@](#): > > I do think he does believe that some that went to the Parlor went there with preconceived attitudes. I think he might be right, but I also think some people do keep their attitudes in check. I can guarantee you that he’s right. I’m not going to say I didn’t have a preconceived attitude about what to expect at LBMB2 after having been at LBMB1. But having a certain attitude doesn’t mean we didn’t try, which several of us did. (I think that’s what you meant about keeping it in check.) > [@](#): > > We should avoid judging the group by the posts of one member, or any of the annoying trolls, unless we all want to be judged by the standard of “He whom we do not name.” :eek: But the difference, as I and others have pointed out, is that He Who Shall Not Be Named was pummeled by the other members here for his actions. No such thing has gone on over there for the actions of mythbuster and Veutron. To me, their silence says it all. As I noted earlier, even if somebody agrees with me, I would not let him get away with the crap these two have posted. (I’m saying this as a user, not a moderator.) ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/185 "2000-10-30T13:36:15Z")
I apologize Ben, for my snide remarks. I should have tried to phrase my post in a more gentile manner. Mea culpa. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/186 "2000-10-30T14:21:12Z")
'Gator said: > [@](#): > > I should have tried to phrase my post in a more **gentile** manner. Mea culpa. Funny, you don’t **look** … 😃 For the record, as a participant at both boards, I find a variety of viewpoints expressed at each. In particular, there are a few non-Christians and a number of more-or-less liberal Christians over there. What unites the group is its general willingness to get along with each other, to avoid rancor. On either board, outright lies and misrepresentations are not tolerated. On the other hand, viewpoints based on faith and/or Scriptural interpretation are, for obvious reasons, not challenged there as they would be here. The tone of posts is rarely sarcastic there, where some strong irony is common here. If I can illuminate the problem a bit, where the difficulty seems to lie is in the failure to accommodate each others’ worldviews, to achieve any sort of meeting of the minds on the underlying assumptions that do **not** get posted. To go back to the bottom line on which this thread was started, suppose you have an omnipotent and omniscient God. (Yeah, yeah, **assume** Him for purposes of argument. Now add to your assumptions that He gives a collection of writings which He inspires the content of for purposes of guidance, and guarantees the inerrancy of. Okay, as between this and inductive reasoning from a data set, which has the higher probability of being right? The inerrant contents of the book inspired by that God, right? On the other hand, if you do **not** make those assumptions, then the fact that human beings do indeed make up supernatural myths and legends, on which everyone would be agreed, would place the contents of the Bible on that level, and make the inductive proofs of science the more valid. Two incompossible worldviews. Can one communicate between them? Certainly. Draw out your assumptions. Refute the invalid ones. (E.g., no “literalist” truly is – there are passages he considers to be illustrative fiction, poetry with appropriate license, and so on; the “truths of science” are only contingent – capable of being disproven by further evidence accrued and applied according to the scientific method.) Come to conclusions that all parties to a debate can agree on – even if they’re not the final ones. With regard to Satan and Navigator, I happen to know that they know each other and hold each other in substantial respect, though they differ on a lot of points. I would suggest that the probable action, which makes much sense to me from the simple point of view of how **any** moderator operates, is an e-mail asking for a variance in tone of post, for the purpose of keeping a thread from turning Pit-worthy. And if 'Gator did such a request with respect for Satan’s views, I’m quite sure Satan would comply, modifying his tone in the direction requested. I would suspect that the private mail referred to above was actually more along these lines – not restricting what was posted but asking for a less accusatory or confrontational tone, for example. I doubt very strongly that a message of the sort “piss off the PP” was ever sent. Hell, David B. would not do this to the most rabid fundie who starts a quasi-troll thread here for purposes of “pushing his views on the heathens who hang out here” under cover of witnessing. If we can get away from name-calling, we can make progress in learning from each other – in combatting ignorance and finding out the truth. And one thing everybody on both boards respects is the truth. ---
**Author:** ![Falcon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/49beb7/32.png) [@Falcon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Falcon)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/187 "2000-10-30T14:58:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Polycarp \* > **For the record, as a participant at both boards, I find a variety of viewpoints expressed at each. In particular, there are a few non-Christians and a number of more-or-less liberal Christians over there. What unites the group is its general willingness to get along with each other, to avoid rancor.** You’re KIDDING! Non-Christians over at the Parlor? Who’d have thought!!! 😉 (Sorry. In a whimsical mood today.) ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/188 "2000-10-30T15:08:23Z")
Well, since you asked… I do find that overall the PP is way better than LBMB. However (there’s always a however), a couple of posters in the two threads I got involved with - namely Mr. Anderson and Zoomom - frustrated me so I decided I didn’t need the headache. I find this not to be a fault of the management of the place. I don’t know if Mr. Anderson was breaking rules, per se, no more than when David B breaks out the heavy-handed and insulting sarcasm he does here, for example, and I’m a big boy anyway. But, simply put, I decided that I didn’t need the headache. The people on that board who I like I chat with and I hope to get together with Navigator for dinner when he is in Raleigh. I would not get together for dinner with Mr. Anderson… * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) \*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Six months, three weeks, 13 hours, 13 minutes and 47 seconds. 8182 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,022.75. Extra life with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 9 hours, 50 minutes. **THE YANKEES WIN! THAAAAAAH YANKEES WIN! 1996 · 1998 ··· WORLD CHAMPIONS ··· 1999 · 2000 26 Titles! The #1 Dynasty of all-time! And most importantly… RULERS OF NYC!!**\* ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/189 "2000-10-30T15:17:01Z")
> [@](#): > > The people on that board who I like I chat with and I hope to get together with Navigator for dinner when he is in Raleigh. [editorial]For those that are in the know, the meal in question will probably be a beef based product, and not roast Navigator with Fava beans and a nice Chianti. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/190 "2000-10-30T15:44:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Navigator \* > > > [@](#): > > > > and end up finding weaselling, outright lies, and the usual bearing of false witness from the fundies. > > **That was what you were expecting to find.** What we were expecting is irrelevant. We should not have found weaselling, lying and bearing false witness, PERIOD. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Why do you not rebuke Veutron for his false accusations against me? > > **See above.** He meant a _public_ rebuke. How are we to know you did your job if we do not see it done? You’ll notice that **David B, Gaudere, manhattan** _et al._ always correct a poster in public with their “Moderator Hat ON:” posts. That’s to let us know they’re doing their jobs. And if the guilty party chooses to ignore a public correcting, he cannot say it had never occurred. Well, he _could_, but he’d be exposed as a liar. > [@](#): > > **Lets examine the evidence. Prior to your arrival the ‘reasonable discussion’ in the Origins forum was about 3-4 posts per day. The horde arrives, and the quiet forum jumps to an average of 33 posts per day.** Are you saying you like it quiet over there? Why set up a message board and then hope it gets little or no response? > [@](#): > > **The MAJORITY of the people at the Parlor have little or no interest in the CvE debate.** My beef is only with those who DO respond, and respond with exactly the same message over and over. It’s like trying to debate with a telephone answering machine. Eventually, you realize there’s no one home and you hang up and dial another number (post on another thread). > [@](#): > > **You guys found exactly what you were looking for.** Again, if it had not been there, would we have found it? I don’t think so. > [@](#): > > **I sure hope you like the pedestal you put yourselves on.** Oh, I think I can see pretty far from up here. ---
**Author:** ![Satan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Satan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Satan)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/191 "2000-10-30T17:29:01Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Navigator \* > > **For those that are in the know, the meal in question will probably be a beef based product, and not roast Navigator with Fava beans and a nice Chianti.** Soilent Green _IS_ Navigator! 😉 * * * Yer pal, [Satan](http://www.members.tripod.com/jmspoofe/sdmb/satan.jpg) \*I HAVE BEEN SMOKE-FREE FOR: Six months, three weeks, 15 hours, 34 minutes and 19 seconds. 8185 cigarettes not smoked, saving $1,023.24. Extra life with Drain Bead: 4 weeks, 10 hours, 5 minutes. **THE YANKEES WIN! THAAAAAAH YANKEES WIN! 1996 · 1998 ··· WORLD CHAMPIONS ··· 1999 · 2000 26 Titles! The #1 Dynasty of all-time! And most importantly… RULERS OF NYC!!**\* ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/192 "2000-10-30T18:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Navigator \* > \*\*I apologize Ben, for my snide remarks. > > I should have tried to phrase my post in a more gentile manner. Mea culpa. > > \*\* Thanks- it’s refreshing to receive an apology online! But I must say that I still disagree with the content of your posts, and your behavior. Among other things, some of the bad Christian behavior went on for a long time, and you simply did not do what the Bible prescribes. And as has already been pointed out, our expectations are irrelevant to the fact that the promoters of “creation science” have no integrity. Even if you phrased your post more gently, you would still be rebuking us, when the creationists were the ones at fault. Yes, I could have phrased myself more clearly in defining the group of PPers to whom I was referring. But let’s not lose sight of the fact that the creationists on “Order Here First” acted in a way that brings great shame on Christianity, and one can’t dismiss their behavior as being a “difference in worldview” without doing great insult to the religion. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/193 "2000-10-30T18:29:27Z")
Well to be totally honest Ben, I don’t think I posted much in that forum except for the first week or so. I tried going back and reviewing to find out the specific behavior that I exhibited that was un-christian, and frankly, I couldn’t keep up with who said what when, where and first. Seems that the term Troll has been used quite often, and other people’s intellect has been called into question, as well as claims of lying. As a self-proclaimed CvE neophyte, it is tough for me to sort out the lies and untruths that are clear to you. I can’t _make_ anyone post a retraction even if it is needed. My primary thrust in _this_ conversation is to not return to the behavior of the 700 post thread of last year. If you got a problem with what Veutron, mythbuster or I am saying over there, bring it up _over there_. Keeping in mind the rules of the board. I’ve let a lot of stuff go, that elsewhere would have gotten a thread closed. My perception is that both sides have been mostly respectful, your view might be different. I’ve not paid much attention to the threads of late (busy at work) so the forum itself is largely unmoderated (since ghoti has been ill, and no replacement has been selected.) If you think my behavior has been un-christian, so be it. I’ll try to realign myself with how I understand the Christian faith. Peace. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/194 "2000-10-30T19:27:17Z")
> [@](#): > > …the meal in question will probably be a beef based product, and not roast Navigator with Fava beans and a nice Chianti. Of course, you have to remember that in my tradition, at least, the person that reads the Scripture lesson is referred to as the Lector, and it’s usually followed by eating the Body and drinking the Blood! 😃 I saw a little bad manners on both sides. And I saw respectful debate on both sides. And I think that the problem of a forum with no active moderator, and some strongly held views going head to head, deserves some consideration by both sides. Here it is Gaudere’s and David’s call when something is beyond the bounds and when it is not. And when to publicly chastize and when to speak in private. Navigator by his own account (and I knew this when I issued the invitation) was trying to keep a weather eye on that forum while ghoti was ill. I don’t think he was in error in what he did. And I issue my own apologies to anyone who felt burnt by intolerance or failure to debate on even ground, since I started the mess by issuing the invitation. On that note, I’d like to drop it. And request that this thread, which is no longer serving any purpose but rehashing acrimony, be closed. As the OP, I believe I have that right. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2000, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/195 "2000-10-31T00:14:39Z")
Well, I had one more thing to say, but I’ll keep it to myself. 🙂 [Moderator Hat: ON] OPs have the right to request a thread be closed (as does anyone, though we give more weight to the OP’s request), though we don’t always honor the request if others wish the thread to continue. However, since this thread seems to have run its course, I’ll go ahead and close it. * * * David B, SDMB Great Debates Moderator [Moderator Hat: OFF] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324.md?page=9)