# Creationists Call for Debate **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 2, 2000, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324 "2000-10-02T12:45:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2000, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/161 "2000-10-28T16:59:46Z")
Ben asked: > [@](#): > > David, you said that for a while the conversation on PP went ok. When? Which poster there do you feel was interested in a serious conversation? Which one do you feel was not a troll? Sorry, but I don’t recall the names. If I go back for a visit, I’ll check. But it seems to me there were one or two folks who were somewhat interested in discussion, even though it was obvious that they would never accept what we were telling them. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2000, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/162 "2000-10-28T19:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*Sorry, but I don’t recall the names. If I go back for a visit, I’ll check. But it seems to me there were one or two folks who were somewhat interested in discussion, even though it was obvious that they would never accept what we were telling them. \*\* Sadly, all the old creationists like Mr. Anderson who crawled into the woodwork when the evolutionists started talking about evidence have just crawled back out again. Roblynn started an anti-evolution thread, and the fundies are back to the usual fantasising about evolution going into the dustbin of history. Even worse, ghoti has joined them. It’s tempting to bring up all the old issues they dodged… but I’m not sure it’s really worth it. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2000, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/163 "2000-10-28T20:04:16Z")
Man I thought having a PhD in Biology and all you’d be a little more observant. That thread was dead when y’all started your little foray, and would have stayed dead, if NMRN hadn’t ressurected it. _sigh_ ---
**Author:** ![jab1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ee7513/32.png) [@jab1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jab1)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2000, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/164 "2000-10-28T20:57:10Z")
Which is exactly WHY I resurrected it. IMHO, **ghoti** is the all-time king in avoiding uncomfortable facts and trying to prove evolution isn’t real. He, and others, were trying to figure out how Noah could’ve gotten dinosaurs on the Ark. Then I asked what happened to the dinos. **Navigator** his own self tried to convince me they were eaten by the other animals and, I guess, Noah and his family. (I wonder how you’d cook a diplodocus?) There’s another thread where they’re discussing Neanderthals and they’re desperately trying to fit them into Genesis. (“Maybe they’re the people Cain met in Nod after he killed Abel.”) You’d have better luck trying to make a camel pass through the eye of a needle. See y’all Monday. ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2000, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/165 "2000-10-28T21:34:38Z")
then again, the fine print said my post was a joke… Which makes me realize that you guys stick around just so you can return here and make fun of the fundies. Nothing really has changed has it. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2000, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/166 "2000-10-28T22:25:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Which makes me realize that you guys stick around just so you can return here and make fun of the fundies There may be a little of that … but I submit there’s not a lot. I don’t think I’ve made any fun of anyone. ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2000, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/167 "2000-10-28T22:27:15Z")
Oh, and, … Navigator, I saw and understood your fine print. ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/168 "2000-10-29T03:18:29Z")
No Jon, you haven’t. I appreciate that. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 8:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/169 "2000-10-29T08:21:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Navigator \* > **Man I thought having a PhD in Biology and all you’d be a little more observant.** Feeling a bit snide, Navigator? Frankly I think you have a rather obvious double standard. The non-Christians here go to the Pizza Parlor expecting to find reasonable discussion, and end up finding weaselling, outright lies, and the usual bearing of false witness from the fundies. When we come back here to complain about how the Pizza Parlor fundies are disappointingly like the Pound Puppy fundies, we get a lot of sighing and moaning from you about how us non-Christians never change. Where is your concern for the immorality of your fellow Christians? When Mr. Anderson falsely accused Satan, why did you not rebuke him, as is your duty as a Christian? Why do you not rebuke Veutron for his false accusations against me? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![Navigator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/4af34b/32.png) [@Navigator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Navigator)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/170 "2000-10-29T13:47:53Z")
[QUOTE] Feeling a bit snide, Navigator? [quote] Possibly… May God forgive me. > [@](#): > > Frankly I think you have a rather obvious double standard. Maybe there is, maybe there isn’t. > [@](#): > > The non-Christians here go to the Pizza Parlor expecting to find reasonable discussion, No you didn’t. > [@](#): > > and end up finding weaselling, outright lies, and the usual bearing of false witness from the fundies. That was what you were expecting to find. Go back through this thread, and read the non-Christians response to the ‘reasonable discussion’ you won’t find much, because very few expected any. [quote] When we come back here to complain about how the Pizza Parlor fundies are disappointingly like the Pound Puppy fundies, we get a lot of sighing and moaning from you about how us non-Christians never change. [quote] It seems in my experience here, that the only place where ‘we come back here complaining about another board’ are the two ‘fundie’ boards. In my experience, and based on what I’ve read here, that seems to be the ‘national pastime’ I’m really trying not see the DITWD persecution complex, really. > [@](#): > > Where is your concern for the immorality of your fellow Christians? Are you really in a position to judge me in this? > [@](#): > > When Mr. Anderson falsely accused Satan, why did you not rebuke him, as is your duty as a Christian? Again, how do you know I didn’t. The first step is to take a brother aside. > [@](#): > > Why do you not rebuke Veutron for his false accusations against me? See above. Lets examine the evidence. Prior to your arrival the ‘reasonable discussion’ in the Origins forum was about 3-4 posts per day. Ghoti had left and there was little if any interest in CvE. Poly and Mr. Anderson had a small discussion in, and Poly asked if he could have some of you come over. Fine, I didn’t then, nor do I now, have a problem with that. The horde arrives, and the quiet forum jumps to an average of 33 posts per day. The only ‘fundies’ in the disucussion were Mr. Anderson, myself, workfromhomemom, and Roblynn. The MAJORITY of the people at the Parlor have little or no interest in the CvE debate. The majority of the Parlor hasn’t even entered into the discussion. But y’all shore do like that broad brush ya like ta tar us all with. So, am I feeling a little snide? Yeah, I am. You guys found exactly what you were looking for. I sure hope you like the pedestal you put yourselves on. (There are exceptions, Poly, Tris, JonF. Thanks for the reasonable discussions. I prolly missed others as well.) ---
**Author:** ![Sandy\_Price](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b2d939/32.png) [@Sandy\_Price](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sandy_Price)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/171 "2000-10-29T16:10:32Z")
In what area does this subject or debate need to be discussed? My kids went to Christian Schools where the subject of evolution was not taught and was completely ignored. The last 6 years of school I chose to remove them to another school where evolution was taught as a science not a religious subject. The balance seemed to work out to their benefit. I don’t have much of an interest in debating whether this is of interest to most of us. That is, unless it becomes a school subject. If I had been a creationist, I would have been disturbed at the subject of evolution. School subjects should be according to the parents wishes and if any child is one way or another, should be excused from any classes that would sell their point of view. I believe in studying comparative religions in high school to introduce our kids into the many different belief systems in the world. Education will be the true value in our lives. I popped into Pizza Parlor and I’m afraid my viewpoint may not be a popular one. I will give another look after the election. ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/172 "2000-10-29T18:01:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Navigator \* > \*\*No you didn’t. \*\* What, are you like FriendofGod now? Is Jesus whispering to you secret messages about what’s in my heart? How the heck do you know what I came to the Parlor expecting? > [@](#): > > \*\* > That was what you were expecting to find. Go back through this thread, and read the non-Christians response to the ‘reasonable discussion’ you won’t find much, because very few expected any. \*\* And _I’m_ the one tarring with a broad brush? > [@](#): > > \*\* > It seems in my experience here, that the only place where ‘we come back here complaining about another board’ are the two ‘fundie’ boards. \*\* Ok, Navigator, send us to a board containing equally dishonest people as the ones in “Order Here First” and we’ll start complaining about someone else. Sheesh… > [@](#): > > \*\* > In my experience, and based on what I’ve read here, that seems to be the ‘national pastime’ I’m really trying not see the DITWD persecution complex, really. \*\* DITWD? > [@](#): > > \*\* > Again, how do you know I didn’t. The first step is to take a brother aside. \*\* I considered that possibility- but in the case of Veutron, he hasn’t stopped, and I don’t see you taking the further step of rebuking him publically. Why didn’t you take _me_ aside, rather than rebuking me publically? Is privacy not to be wasted on non-Christians? > [@](#): > > \*\* > The MAJORITY of the people at the Parlor have little or no interest in the CvE debate. The majority of the Parlor hasn’t even entered into the discussion. But y’all shore do like that broad brush ya like ta tar us all with. \*\* Well, excuse me. Since the only conversation I was involved in at the Parlor was in “Order Here First,” and since you know that, I think it’s reasonable to assume that “those fundies at the Parlor” is something I write because I don’t have time to type out “Those fundies who were present at the Parlor in the Order Here First discussion at which I was present, and not those with whom I had no contact.” Frankly, the Parlor was unable to muster a single creationist with any integrity, and I think that says something about creationists. _Other_ people have made comments about the Parlor as a whole, and have backed their comments with specific examples from other threads. I think that it is entirely reasonable of them to state that the Parlor is not a place where one can find intelligent debate. It might be a nice place for MPSIMS, but that’s a different issue. > [@](#): > > \*\* > So, am I feeling a little snide? Yeah, I am. You guys found exactly what you were looking for. I sure hope you like the pedestal you put yourselves on. \*\* Once again, Navigator, this is amazing! You’ve seen right through me, and since we’re all alike, you need not fear tarring us with a broad brush. Let me ask you this, Navigator… is there something at my job which is causing a great confusion? > [@](#): > > \*\* > (There are exceptions, Poly, Tris, JonF. Thanks for the reasonable discussions. I prolly missed others as well.) \*\* Ah, yes- thanks to all the Christians who participated. Why am I not surprised? -Ben ---
**Author:** ![JonF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/cab0a1/32.png) [@JonF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JonF)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/173 "2000-10-29T21:50:42Z")
> [@](#): > > thanks to all the Christians who participated. My religious convictions are my own, and I believe I have not stated them anywhere where you are likely to see them. I will state that I am not an active member of any Christian organization, nor do I beleive in the inerrancy of the Bible. ---
**Author:** ![Mixlplix98](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@Mixlplix98](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mixlplix98)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/174 "2000-10-29T21:52:01Z")
After enjoying what I considered to be a good learning experience, I must say that **mythbuster** should have a computer virus attached to his head. I direct any who are curious to the last few posts of [this thread.](http://theBruces.stormbirds.org/forum/showthread.php?threadid=1616&pagenumber=2) I expect that no other poster on PP is anything like this. At least Veutron had some courtesy. Respectfully yours, Mixlplix 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Palm\_Cove](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bcef8e/32.png) [@Palm\_Cove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Palm_Cove)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/175 "2000-10-29T22:42:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ben \* > \*\* Is privacy not to be wasted on non-Christians? > > \*\* No, Ben, it isn’t. he used it to me. After having the audacity to ask the creationists to come up with any evidence to support their claims I expressed frustration with some of them who appeared to be posting just to exercise their fingers. I was then privatly mailed by Nav. After basically replying that if he wished to take me on for something I had said, do it for all to see, I received another private message that could (IMHO) only be summed up as piss off from this board. He also challenged me to start a flame war with him in “The Pit” here. This was no doubt an attempt to make me start a thread in which I would look foolish for (a) starting a flaming thread (b)starting a flame war like the histoical ones ©starting a thread where no-one but he and I know the subject matter involved. Ben, you don’t want to be “taken aside” by him, it is his way of saying things privately, that he would be called on if said publicly. If you call him on it privately you get the polite “Piss off from PP, help start a SDMB flame war” message. I had wondered why SDMB did not use the private message function, I think I now know why. I am not going back there. I find evolutionary science and particularly evolution’s effects on mankind a fascinating subject. I find Creationism a nonsense that I can personally ignore. On the other hand, if they actually came up with some real evidence…no, no just kidding! ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/176 "2000-10-29T22:43:02Z")
Ben said: > [@](#): > > Sadly, all the old creationists like Mr. Anderson who crawled into the woodwork when the evolutionists started talking about evidence have just crawled back out again. Roblynn started an anti-evolution thread, and the fundies are back to the usual fantasising about evolution going into the dustbin of history. Even worse, ghoti has joined them. It’s tempting to bring up all the old issues they dodged… but I’m not sure it’s really worth it. I’d been wondering where ghoti was hiding himself. Unfortunately, as jab mentioned, you are pointing out _exactly_ what happened at the LBMB. They ignore what we say and then act as if they’re right even after they’ve been proven wrong. Also as jab mentioned, ghoti was one of the worst offenders with this kind of behavior over at the LBMB, so it doesn’t surprise me to hear he is up to the same old tricks. Nonetheless, I’m not bothering to go back. As we’ve seen, it’s pointless. They may talk to us for a little while, but then they’ll act as if we aren’t there. They may claim to be interested in “Truth” but only if it matches their preconceived notions. And if it doesn’t, some of them apparently feel free to lie in order to support their viewpoints. Lying for God. Ain’t that a stitch? ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 29, 2000, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/177 "2000-10-29T22:49:26Z")
Mixlplix: In response to mythbuster over at LBMB2, you said: > [@](#): > > Well, I am glad that your true Christian colors are at last revealed. I hope that this board has an option to ban trolls. Nah. Not if they are trolls that agree with the notions of those in charge of LBMB2. In that case, they’ll probably just make excuses about the person in question being human and how they’ll get forgiveness from Jesus. You see, it’s okay to be a hypocrite and a liar – as long as you’re a _Christian_ hypocrite and liar… ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/178 "2000-10-30T04:05:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JonF \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > thanks to all the Christians who participated. > > My religious convictions are my own, and I believe I have not stated them anywhere where you are likely to see them. I will state that I am not an active member of any Christian organization, nor do I beleive in the inerrancy of the Bible. \*\* My apologies, to you and Navigator both. I had thought you were a Christian for some reason- in fact, for a while, a few months ago, I had gotten you and Navigator confused. -Ben ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/179 "2000-10-30T04:09:16Z")
Ben, to JonF: > [@](#): > > a few months ago, I had gotten you and Navigator confused Yow! :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Ben](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/df788c/32.png) [@Ben](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ben)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2000, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324/180 "2000-10-30T04:18:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by David B \* > \*\*I’d been wondering where ghoti was hiding himself. \*\* Actually, it was an old post from him, as Navigator has (rather snidely) pointed out. It’s funny- I make an _honest error_ about the date when a message was posted, and Navigator insults me in public. Meanwhile, Mr. Anderson _bears false witness_ against others- an actual sin, unlike my own gaffe- and Nav (apparently) takes him aside, privately, to gently instruct him in the ways of Christ. Sheesh! You know what my theory about the crucifixion is? I think that the NT contains a mistranslation, leading to a gross misunderstanding of Christ’s final moments on the cross. You see, the conventional understanding, among many Christians, is that when Jesus took the sins of the world upon himself, God turned his back on Jesus, leading Christ to say “My God, my God, why has thou forsaken me?” I have been doing a bit of study on the Dead Sea Scrolls, being something of an amateur philologist, and have found that the true story is a little different. You see, what really happened is that Jesus looked into the future in order to check on what would happen to his followers, saw the LBMB, and cried “Oy! What tsuris!” -Ben [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-call-for-debate/35324.md?page=10)