# Creationists in Museums. Two tier America ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524 "2005-09-20T13:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/81 "2005-09-22T03:25:29Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Well, maybe, just MAYBE, God sent me those scientists who created Paxil and therapy. And took his/her sweet time doing this? I know being a god must be busy, with all these god things to do, but there’s been a bit of suffering going on for a while. I’ve got a similar question about ID. If it took that long for humans to develop, with only a couple of nudges here and there, why not speed up the process at bit? Gods much have more patience that I do. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/82 "2005-09-22T03:39:07Z")
> [@Euthanasiast](#): > > > [@Lekatt](#): > > > > You can’t find the truth by bully the opposition into believing as you do. > > So what were the Crusades all about? What were the Inquisitions all about? Irrelevant point when addressed to **lekatt**. He does not appear to subscribe to any particular denomination and certainly is not associated with the RCC. Your rhetorical device is akin to asking an atheist board member to defend an action by Joe Stalin on the odd notion that both are atheists. Many Christians disavow the Crusades and Inquisition–heck, even a lot of Catholics put them down as errors undertaken by misguided church leaders. You get no traction with that sort of question. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/83 "2005-09-22T05:52:10Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > And took his/her sweet time doing this? I know being a god must be busy, with all these god things to do, but there’s been a bit of suffering going on for a while. > > I’ve got a similar question about ID. If it took that long for humans to develop, with only a couple of nudges here and there, why not speed up the process at bit? Gods much have more patience that I do. Maybe, but what I’m trying to point out to him is that it’s not a sum zero game. It’s not either or-you don’t have to choose between science and religion, or beliefs. You can believe in God and still accept scientific truths. So the idea that somehow science is trying to disprove religion is insane. ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/84 "2005-09-22T07:56:11Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have never really understood atheists. They believe in no-God and get nothing in return. While people who do believe live longer and happier lives. Why would someone choose nothing over something, when they can’t prove nothing exists. > . I can’t prove god doesn’t exist, I can’t prove leprechauns don’t exist, I can’t prove that an _evil_ god who wants us to suffer doesn’t exist, and so on… But I’ve no evidences of such being existing, hence no reason to believe in any of the above. Then, next question : yes, maybe it would be nicer if I believed in a pleasant afterlife (that’s assuming I pick the right religion. Some fundamentalists, honestly, believe in a god I’d rather not exist). But I don’t get to chose my beliefs on the basis of what would make me happier if it were real. I don’t believe in Santa Claus. I assume you don’t, either. However it would be nice to think that a bearbed guy is going to bring us presents 3 months down the road. Are you able in some way to make yourself believe in Santa Claus because it would be nice if he existed? I don’t think you can. Similarily, I can’t make myself believe in god, even if I were convinced I would be happier as a believer. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/85 "2005-09-22T12:44:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Actually, **lekatt** IS right in a sense that God has provided cures (or rather, treatment) for mental illness, if you look at it that scientists and doctors are finding new ways of treating various disorders, and enabling people to live normally without suffering. Shall we follow the origins of that myth to its bitter and depraved end? You do remember the so-called Tree of Knowledge, don’t you? And all the dire things God unleashed upon “His people” simply because Eve was “tempted” (tempted by one of God’s own creations, which presumably God—being omnipotent— could control, no less) into such a horrible & terrible thing as a search for understanding her place in the world and how the world functioned? God is either a myth and can’t have “provided” anything. Or He’s a monster; the ultimate sociopath. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/86 "2005-09-22T13:19:13Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > I can’t prove god doesn’t exist, I can’t prove leprechauns don’t exist, I can’t prove that an _evil_ god who wants us to suffer doesn’t exist, and so on… But I’ve no evidences of such being existing, hence no reason to believe in any of the above. > Then, next question : yes, maybe it would be nicer if I believed in a pleasant afterlife (that’s assuming I pick the right religion. Some fundamentalists, honestly, believe in a god I’d rather not exist). But I don’t get to chose my beliefs on the basis of what would make me happier if it were real. I don’t believe in Santa Claus. I assume you don’t, either. However it would be nice to think that a bearbed guy is going to bring us presents 3 months down the road. Are you able in some way to make yourself believe in Santa Claus because it would be nice if he existed? I don’t think you can. Similarily, I can’t make myself believe in god, even if I were convinced I would be happier as a believer. It’s not necessary to pick the right religion, because there is no right religion. Of the thousands of spiritual experiences I have read, only a few of them follow the expected doctrine of some religion. In these cases the experiencer was a firm believer of that religion. By far the largest majority (90%), experience no religion. It can be said God has no religion. So, define the God you would want to believe in. Not so much His looks, but as how He would interact with you. His emotional characteristics, does He punish for misdeeds, etc. Many atheists think God has been made up anyway, so make up your own God. Right. You would be happier believing in God, but not just any God. I think this would be an interesting thread if someone wanted to start one on it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/87 "2005-09-22T13:32:48Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > So, define the God you would want to believe in. I think **clairobscur** ’s point, though, was that true belief isn’t really voluntary. You can’t make yourself believe in something you don’t actually believe in just because you think it might be nice to have such a belief. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/88 "2005-09-22T14:40:59Z")
> [@](#): > > So, define the God you would want to believe in. If the existence of a god is an objective fact, as many believers insist, this just ain’t gonna work. It can’t work any better than making up your own objective reality which denies the existence of gravity - or evolution - to bring this thing back towards its original course. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/89 "2005-09-22T15:31:47Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > Look at how many people believe in spirits or ghosts or the Loch Ness monster or the Bermuda Triangle or Big Foot or UFOs… Sure, John, but would anyone give a fuck if they weren’t trying to ram those Creationist beliefs into schools? Of course not. As soon as the crazies out there start trying to have Big Foot, UFOs, and the **Truth** about the Bermuda Triangle in schools then their personal beliefs will be an issue. Until then, though, their beliefs are their own business. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/90 "2005-09-22T15:35:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > I think **clairobscur** ’s point, though, was that true belief isn’t really voluntary. You can’t make yourself believe in something you don’t actually believe in just because you think it might be nice to have such a belief. While I don’t recommend trying to make yourself believe in something, it’s done all the time. Most Christians believe in the Christian God, not through experience, but through teachings and repetitive rituals. In light of ignorance of truth, tis better to chose a positive node than a negative one. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/91 "2005-09-22T15:39:49Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > You do remember the so-called Tree of Knowledge, don’t you? And all the dire things God unleashed upon “His people” simply because Eve was “tempted” (tempted by one of God’s own creations, which presumably God—being omnipotent— could control, no less) into such a horrible & terrible thing as a search for understanding her place in the world and how the world functioned? What, are you saying that a place under 24-hour surveillance where the search for knowledge is forbidden and sex is unheard of _isn’t_ paradise? How odd. ---
**Author:** ![tnetennba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@tnetennba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tnetennba)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/92 "2005-09-22T15:40:44Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > While I don’t recommend trying to make yourself believe in something, it’s done all the time. Most Christians believe in the Christian God, not through experience, but through teachings and repetitive rituals. > > In light of ignorance of truth, tis better to chose a positive node than a negative one. Or better yet, do a little research. ---
**Author:** ![pravnik](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8edcca/32.png) [@pravnik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pravnik)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/93 "2005-09-22T15:42:37Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > What, are you saying that a place under 24-hour surveillance where the search for knowledge is forbidden and sex is unheard of _isn’t_ paradise? How odd. They call that “high school.” ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/94 "2005-09-22T15:45:16Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > If the existence of a god is an objective fact, as many believers insist, this just ain’t gonna work. It can’t work any better than making up your own objective reality which denies the existence of gravity - or evolution - to bring this thing back towards its original course. Would it surprise you to know that you make up your own objective reality every day of your life. (by your thoughts) (Spiritual truth) I think it would work because who really knows about God. Do you believe the Bible is an accurate account, or do you believe another one of hundreds of other sacred tomes. If you do believe God has been defined share it with us. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/95 "2005-09-22T15:55:12Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Would it surprise you to know that you make up your own objective reality every day of your life. (by your thoughts) (Spiritual truth) Sure, and I’ll even go so far as to say that it’s wise to choose healthier thoughts. But a) Some of us realize that religious thoughts are not necessarily healthy, and b) If you arrive at those thoughts by ignoring all evidence to the contrary, that’s not healthy. That’s wishful thinking. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/96 "2005-09-22T16:02:05Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > God is either a myth and can’t have “provided” anything. Or He’s a monster; the ultimate sociopath. So this is what agreeing with **UncleBeer** feels like. Weird. I thought I’d feel dirtier. 🙂 -Joe ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/97 "2005-09-22T16:02:51Z")
> [@TokyoPlayer](#): > > And took his/her sweet time doing this? I know being a god must be busy, with all these god things to do, but there’s been a bit of suffering going on for a while. > > I’ve got a similar question about ID. If it took that long for humans to develop, with only a couple of nudges here and there, why not speed up the process at bit? Gods much have more patience that I do. Where God is time isn’t. Eternity is not a long time, it’s an absense of time. Patience is good to learn, keeps the blood pressure down. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/98 "2005-09-22T16:05:01Z")
**Lekatt** , your form of rigid belief, i.e. if you accept evolution, you must be opposed to religion is something which can do just as much damage as any form of science, if not more. I’ve suffered from severe clinical depression for most of my life. While I won’t say it’s cured, it is under control thanks to two things: (1) my faith in God and the support my church gives me, and (2) the anti-depressants I’ve taken and therapy I’ve undergone. My health is due to both science and faith, and not due to my faith in science. On the other hand, I’ve known people who have been damaged because they cannot get their minds and their beliefs to conform to those around them. CJ ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/99 "2005-09-22T16:11:15Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > What, are you saying that a place under 24-hour surveillance where the search for knowledge is forbidden and sex is unheard of _isn’t_ paradise? How odd. Haw! An excellent and most sardonic comment on the current political topography of the Union. You are to be congratulated, sir. Really; I mean that sincerely. > [@merijeek](#): > > So this is what agreeing with UncleBeer feels like. Just goes to show, nearly everybody’s got some common ground somewhere. The search for such often leads to some weird places, tho’. > [@lekatt](#): > > Would it surprise you to know that you make up your own objective reality every day of your life. (by your thoughts) (Spiritual truth) Yeah, that would surprise me - greatly. What you’re describing, however, is **not** objective reality; it is _subjective_ reality. Which is an oxymoron. Reality is a concrete thing; it cannot be altered by mere opinion. Objective reality consists of things like atoms and the laws of physics. My thoughts about a deity (whether he’s mythical, or real) in no way affects the turning of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/100 "2005-09-22T16:12:02Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Sure, and I’ll even go so far as to say that it’s wise to choose healthier thoughts. But > > a) Some of us realize that religious thoughts are not necessarily healthy, and > > b) If you arrive at those thoughts by ignoring all evidence to the contrary, that’s not healthy. That’s wishful thinking. I agree fully, but we are not talking about religious thoughts here. One should not agnore **any** evidence, **for** or **against** something as important as God. There is plenty on both sides. Now, which thoughts do you consider unhealthy. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524.md?page=6)