# Creationists in Museums. Two tier America ? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 20, 2005, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524 "2005-09-20T13:36:50Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/101 "2005-09-22T16:55:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I agree fully, but we are not talking about religious thoughts here. > > One should not agnore **any** evidence, **for** or **against** something as important as God. There is plenty on both sides. > > Now, which thoughts do you consider unhealthy. To repeat myself : There is _no_ evidence for any version of God. That is precisely why religion is referred to as “faith”. You also have no evidence God is important, assuming he exists. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/102 "2005-09-22T17:47:49Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I agree fully Help, mommy, I’m scared. > [@](#): > > Now, which thoughts do you consider unhealthy. Personal opinion? Well, for one, feeling a compulsion to kiss Hank’s ass is unhealthy. So is doing right by my fellow man for the sole purpose of getting Hank’s mythical million dollars. Denying people legal rights because some ancient book says they’re icky strikes me as pretty absurd. And disbelieving one of the most robust theories in town because I want mythical Hank to comfort me when I’m dead just sounds stupid. That’s the short list. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/103 "2005-09-22T17:51:16Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Haw! An excellent and most sardonic comment on the current political topography of the Union. You are to be congratulated, sir. Really; I mean that sincerely. Thank you. But I stole it from Ann Druyan, and mangled it from there. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/104 "2005-09-22T17:55:31Z")
Ann Druyan? I like her. She’s hot. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/105 "2005-09-22T17:58:18Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Ann Druyan? I like her. She’s hot. Hey, now that Carl’s gone, you think I got any kind of shot with her? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/106 "2005-09-22T18:30:43Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Haw! An excellent and most sardonic comment on the current political topography of the Union. You are to be congratulated, sir. Really; I mean that sincerely. > Just goes to show, nearly everybody’s got some common ground somewhere. The search for such often leads to some weird places, tho’. > > Yeah, that would surprise me - greatly. What you’re describing, however, is **not** objective reality; it is _subjective_ reality. Which is an oxymoron. Reality is a concrete thing; it cannot be altered by mere opinion. Objective reality consists of things like atoms and the laws of physics. My thoughts about a deity (whether he’s mythical, or real) in no way affects the turning of the earth. I am not sure what objective reality would look like. If there is an objective reality there would be no objective observers to observe it. Even some scientists are now understanding their expectations color their research. The laws of physics are interesting, they show precision order and timing. What or who do you think monitors and corrects the deviations. I think a Higher Intelligence does so. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/107 "2005-09-22T18:34:13Z")
> [@Der Trihs](#): > > To repeat myself : There is _no_ evidence for any version of God. That is precisely why religion is referred to as “faith”. > > You also have no evidence God is important, assuming he exists. Look around you and in a mirror you will see evidence of God. What you say is your opinion, until your show cites. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/108 "2005-09-22T18:36:46Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Help, mommy, I’m scared. > Personal opinion? Well, for one, feeling a compulsion to kiss Hank’s ass is unhealthy. So is doing right by my fellow man for the sole purpose of getting Hank’s mythical million dollars. Denying people legal rights because some ancient book says they’re icky strikes me as pretty absurd. And disbelieving one of the most robust theories in town because I want mythical Hank to comfort me when I’m dead just sounds stupid. > > That’s the short list. I have no idea what you said or why you said it. Nothing in my experience anywhere like it. I would agree or disagree if I know what was said. ---
**Author:** ![Maeglin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8baadc/32.png) [@Maeglin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maeglin)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/109 "2005-09-22T18:40:47Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Look around you and in a mirror you will see evidence of God. What you say is your opinion, until your show cites. I think there is some tension between your first and second sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Rashak\_Mani](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ea666f/32.png) [@Rashak\_Mani](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rashak_Mani)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/110 "2005-09-22T18:44:08Z")
hehe… 3 pages now… talk about hijacking my thread ! 🙂 Well Lekatt… obviously the idea of intelectual honesty is alien to you. Believing just to believe seems much worse than blind faith somehow. Also its not God that heals… but belief in a God. In a way I agree that ignorance is bliss… but I chose otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/111 "2005-09-22T18:59:42Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I have no idea what you said or why you said it. Nothing in my experience anywhere like it. I would agree or disagree if I know what was said. Read [this](http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php) for the Hank references. But I’ll translate: “Well, for one, feeling a compulsion to kiss Hank’s ass is unhealthy.” To heap praise on and love with all your heart a being that is most likely mythical and otherwise very cruel is stupid. “So is doing right by my fellow man for the sole purpose of getting Hank’s mythical million dollars.” I try to treat people right because it’s the right thing to do. I don’t expect to get a pass into Heaven for it. “Denying people legal rights because some ancient book says they’re icky strikes me as pretty absurd.” The Bible says it’s bad to be gay. The Bible is simply wrong about that. “And disbelieving one of the most robust theories in town because I want mythical Hank to comfort me when I’m dead just sounds stupid.” Denying evolution because I want to believe in a god is wishful and cloudy thinking. And all sorts of illogical. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/112 "2005-09-22T19:22:10Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I am not sure what objective reality would look like. Look out the window. > [@](#): > > The laws of physics are interesting, they show precision order and timing. What or who do you think monitors and corrects the deviations. I think a Higher Intelligence does so. There are no deviations from the laws of physics. Therefore there is no need for anyone/anything to “monitor and correct” the deviations. I’ll grant that there are laws of physics which aren’t fully understood or explored right now; there are deviations in the measurement of the phenomena which are manifestations of the laws of physics (due entirely to our imprecise instruments). But there simply aren’t any deviations in the laws. A guy can fill the dustbin of his head with all the metaphysical trash he wants, but it doesn’t change the objective reality of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/113 "2005-09-22T19:53:23Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > Look around you and in a mirror you will see evidence of God. What you say is your opinion, until your show cites. I look around me and see no evidence of God, gods, spirits, souls, magic, fairys or unicorns. I look in a mirror and see I need to comb my hair. And I don’t need to provide cites, because I’m not claiming the existence of anything; you are. Besides, I’m saying that there _is_ no evidence, that there is nothing to cite; how do I provide a cite that there is no cite ? Provide proof there is a God. Provide a cite for that. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/114 "2005-09-22T20:43:04Z")
> [@tdn](#): > > Read [this](http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.php) for the Hank references. But I’ll translate: > > “Well, for one, feeling a compulsion to kiss Hank’s ass is unhealthy.” > > To heap praise on and love with all your heart a being that is most likely mythical and otherwise very cruel is stupid. > > “So is doing right by my fellow man for the sole purpose of getting Hank’s mythical million dollars.” > > I try to treat people right because it’s the right thing to do. I don’t expect to get a pass into Heaven for it. > > “Denying people legal rights because some ancient book says they’re icky strikes me as pretty absurd.” > > The Bible says it’s bad to be gay. The Bible is simply wrong about that. > > “And disbelieving one of the most robust theories in town because I want mythical Hank to comfort me when I’m dead just sounds stupid.” > > Denying evolution because I want to believe in a god is wishful and cloudy thinking. And all sorts of illogical. OK, I agree with you, but what does it have to do with God. ---
**Author:** ![tdn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/94ad74/32.png) [@tdn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tdn)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/115 "2005-09-22T20:45:35Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > OK, I agree with you, but what does it have to do with God. You’re joking, right? ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/116 "2005-09-22T20:49:51Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Look out the window. > There are no deviations from the laws of physics. Therefore there is no need for anyone/anything to “monitor and correct” the deviations. I’ll grant that there are laws of physics which aren’t fully understood or explored right now; there are deviations in the measurement of the phenomena which are manifestations of the laws of physics (due entirely to our imprecise instruments). But there simply aren’t any deviations in the laws. > > A guy can fill the dustbin of his head with all the metaphysical trash he wants, but it doesn’t change the objective reality of the world. Your post was a contradiction. How do you know there are no deviations if your instruments can’t measure them. I had hoped someone would want to define a God for themselves, or start a new thread on it. It didn’t happen so I will quit posting in this thread. You guys are something, ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/117 "2005-09-22T21:51:20Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > Shall we follow the origins of that myth to its bitter and depraved end? You do remember the so-called Tree of Knowledge, don’t you? And all the dire things God unleashed upon “His people” simply because Eve was “tempted” (tempted by one of God’s own creations, which presumably God—being omnipotent— could control, no less) into such a horrible & terrible thing as a search for understanding her place in the world and how the world functioned? > > God is either a myth and can’t have “provided” anything. Or He’s a monster; the ultimate sociopath. Well, yeah, if you believe in that God. Like I said, I was just using a “what if” to **lekatt** , to try and reach him through the New Agey smoke. ---
**Author:** ![Siege](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Siege](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siege)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/118 "2005-09-22T22:00:54Z")
**lekatt** , what do you have to say to those of us who look out of the window and see the hand of God in evolution, hmmm? Ah yes. As I understand your point of view, we are supporters of science and thus must be opposed to religion because, in your opinion, a scientific mindset and a religious mindset cannot exist within the same mind. They do coexist in mind and many of the most religious people I know also have scientific mindsets. As for defining God, to me God is completely and utterly transcendant and infinitely beyond mere human comprehension. I have somewhat less ability to define God than an ant has to define air, and I would not presume to do so. CJ ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/119 "2005-09-23T01:24:31Z")
> [@Siege](#): > > **lekatt** , what do you have to say to those of us who look out of the window and see the hand of God in evolution, hmmm? > > Ah yes. As I understand your point of view, we are supporters of science and thus must be opposed to religion because, in your opinion, a scientific mindset and a religious mindset cannot exist within the same mind. They do coexist in mind and many of the most religious people I know also have scientific mindsets. > > As for defining God, to me God is completely and utterly transcendant and infinitely beyond mere human comprehension. I have somewhat less ability to define God than an ant has to define air, and I would not presume to do so. > > CJ Intelligent post. You did define God for yourself. You know, I am always amazed at how my posts are spun into the theories, opinions, and wild assumptions of “what I really meant.” Actually I said what I meant and nothing more than that. Not one posting on this board knows what I believe, who I am, or what I am trying to do. Not one. I must leave this thread, it has been hi-jacked enough. If someone wants to discuss the definitions of God for themselves, start a new thread. I won’t start a thread because that would require too much of my time tending it. I have other chores. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2005, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524/120 "2005-09-23T02:02:45Z")
> [@lekatt](#): > > I must leave this thread, it has been hi-jacked enough. Yes, it certainly has been-BY YOU. :mad: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-in-museums-two-tier-america/322524.md?page=7)