# Creationists please help me understand. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 23, 2001, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149 "2001-03-23T14:32:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/1 "2001-03-23T14:32:01Z")
Something I’ve always wondered: Which account of the creation is literally true? Is that Genesis 1:1-31 or 2:1-25? Why is one more (or less) true than the other? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/2 "2001-03-23T15:07:48Z")
The one in chapter 2 (starting from verse 5 - verses 1 - 4 are actually still part of the creation story in chapter 1) is a more detailed version of the parts of chapter 1 that relate to the story of Adam, to be told in the next several chapters. Read verse 2:5 carefully. It says "These are the generations of heaven and earth **when he created them, on the day that G-d created earth and heaven**. (Emphasis mine). The prepositional phrase puts the story to follow in its correct context: it’s occurring _during_ the creation story in the first chapter. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 5:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/3 "2001-03-23T17:01:09Z")
Don’t forget the other three creation stories in Psalms, Proverbs, and Job! ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/4 "2001-03-23T17:16:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > \*\*Don’t forget the other three creation stories in Psalms, Proverbs, and Job! \*\* Huh? ---
**Author:** ![Padeye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@Padeye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Padeye)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/5 "2001-03-23T17:31:37Z")
Beelzebubba, I think your question might be better phrased as “how does a bible literalist reconcile the different accounts of creation?” Some of us who believe that divine creation doesn’t have to be at odds with good science believe the creation stories are allegorical. ---
**Author:** ![Opus1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/858c86/32.png) [@Opus1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Opus1)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/6 "2001-03-23T17:54:15Z")
Pr. 8:22-31 Ps. 74:12-17 Job 38:4-11 (This is the main part; the whole story occupies all of chapters 38-41 ---
**Author:** ![Earthworm\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f07891/32.png) [@Earthworm\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earthworm_Jim)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/7 "2001-03-23T18:00:44Z")
**Padeye** , I apologize. I was intending to imply the bible is not a good reference for **literally and historically accurate** information on the creation. FTR, I was of the opinion that creationists, as the term is commonly used, were biblical literalists, and (necessarily) v-v? For exampe, I wouldn’t refer to the pope as a creationist, though he undoubtedly believes G\*d created the universe et al, yet accepts evolution as non-contradictory to the Catholic religion. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > \*\* > Read verse 2:5 carefully. It says "These are the generations of heaven and earth **when he created them, on the day that G-d created earth and heaven**. (Emphasis mine). The prepositional phrase puts the story to follow in its correct context: it’s occurring _during_ the creation story in the first chapter. \*\* These two excerpts seem to indicate different actions. If the second is occuring during the first, as you postulate, how can the actions be taken in separate order? The two **still** seem mutually exclusive, especially in the context of inerrancy. > [@](#): > > 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so. > 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind, and cattle after their kind, and every thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind: and God saw that it was good. > 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. > 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them. > [@](#): > > 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. > \* > Garden of Eden…Don’t eat from the tree > \* > 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone; I will make him an help meet for him. > 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; and brought them unto Adam to see what he would call them: and whatsoever Adam called every living creature, that was the name thereof. > 2:20 And Adam gave names to all cattle, and to the fowl of the air, and to every beast of the field; but for Adam there was not found an help meet for him. > 2:21 And the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon Adam, and he slept: and he took one of his ribs, and closed up the flesh instead thereof; > 2:22 And the rib, which the LORD God had taken from man, made he a woman, and brought her unto the man. > 2:23 And Adam said, This is now bone of my bones, and flesh of my flesh: she shall be called Woman, because she was taken out of Man. > 2:24 Therefore shall a man leave his father and his mother, and shall cleave unto his wife: and they shall be one flesh. > 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed. ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/8 "2001-03-23T18:30:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Opus1 \* > Pr. 8:22-31 That’s hardly a “creation” story. Isn’t that just the Holy Spirit (a.k.a. Wisdom) reaffirming he/she existed from the beginning? > [@](#): > > Ps. 74:12-17 That’s not a creation story either. That’s just another song singing about how great God is and how he made the rivers flow. OK, I don’t feel so bad about not knowing what you are talking about. > [@](#): > > Job 38:4-11 (This is the main part; the whole story occupies all of chapters 38-41 Well, I’ll have to read the larger excerpt later, but this is just God responding to Job about something and reminding him that He is the creator. A series of interrogatives do not a story make. I think you are blowing these sections out of scope. I mean, if you want to include every time the OT mentions “Lord, creator of blah blah” as a creation story, you can certaintly find 100 more. What about the start of John? Or Revelations (Alpha and the Omega)? Etc. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/9 "2001-03-23T18:55:34Z")
Those passages do seem to echo ancient Mesopotamian creation stories in which the Head Honcho God slays the Great Dragon Critter of Chaos (possibly identified with the sea) in order to bring about an orderly cosmos. Also, jmullaney, your comments regarding Proverbs 8:22-31 are clearly reading Christian Trinitarian ideas back into the Old Testament (although the feminine pronouns in that chapter raise some interesting problems for traditional Christian theology). ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/10 "2001-03-23T19:24:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MEBuckner \* > Those passages do seem to echo ancient Mesopotamian creation stories in which the Head Honcho God slays the Great Dragon Critter of Chaos (possibly identified with the sea) in order to bring about an orderly cosmos. Huh? What did I miss? > [@](#): > > Also, jmullaney, your comments regarding Proverbs 8:22-31 are clearly reading Christian Trinitarian ideas back into the Old Testament Well, that is why I said a.k.a. Wisdom. There is no reason not to believe this isn’t the same “Spirit of God” mentioned in Genesis 1:2, but I suppose I could have left off the word “Holy” (although, wouldn’t the Spirit of God _be_ holy?) in the interests of ecumenism. > [@](#): > > (although the feminine pronouns in that chapter raise some interesting problems for traditional Christian theology). Since when does traditional Christian theology hold that the Holy Spirit has a gender? ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/11 "2001-03-23T19:49:53Z")
Beelzebubba: A common question amongst those relying on English translations. Here’s the key: > [@](#): > > 2:19 And out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field, and every fowl of the air; When reading in the original Hebrew, it’s clear that the proper translation is “The LORD G-d **had** created…etc.” As I said, this second account of creation is meant to set the stage for the story of Adam and his descendants. Therefore, in this second version, it glosses over the actual creation of the animals and birds, referring to them in past perfect (is that right, SDMB grammarians?) tense when the whole point of bringing them up was mentioning Adam’s naming of them. Chaim Mattis Keller ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [March 23, 2001, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/12 "2001-03-23T20:41:33Z")
> [@](#): > > Huh? What did I miss? A course on comparative Ancient Near Eastern mythology? Seriously, do some reading on [Marduk](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/7/0,5716,52077+1,00.html) and Tiamat. From the article [Middle Eastern religion](http://www.britannica.com/bcom/eb/article/4/0,5716,119914+5,00.html): > [@](#): > > The ancient Middle Eastern people believed that the universe resulted from the injecting of order (cosmos) into chaotic primordial beings or matter, followed by divine acts of creation. Genesis 1:1-3 says that when God began to create the heavens and the earth, the “earth was without form and void, and darkness was upon the face of the deep; and the Spirit of God was moving over the face of the waters. And God said, ‘Let there be light’; and there was light.” Thus darkness (i.e., evil) was preexistent. Moreover, the deep (_tehom_ in Hebrew) is the same as the primordial dragon called Tiamat (cognate to the Hebrew _tehom_) in the Babylonian epic of creation. Note that Jewish and Christian thought has generally come to reject the view of creation as bringing order to pre-existing chaos, despite the ancient language occasionally found in the Bible, in favor of creation [_ex nihilo_](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/04470a.htm). > [@](#): > > Since when does traditional Christian theology hold that the Holy Spirit has a gender? The [1917 _Catholic Encyclopedia_](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/) [article on the Holy Ghost](http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07409a.htm) consistently uses the masculine pronoun (“Though really distinct, as a Person, from the Father and the Son, He is consubstantial with Them; being God like Them, He possesses with Them one and the same Divine Essence or Nature.”) Using feminine pronouns to refer to God has been a big bone of contention between theologically conservative Christians and their more theologically innovative brethren. As for the original topic of this thread: The most literal reading of [Genesis 1-2](http://bible.gospelcom.net/cgi-bin/bible?passage=GEN+1-2&language=english&version=NIV&showfn=on) (i.e., with the days of creation being 24 standard hours long and so on), and allowing for cmkeller’s grammatical point about Genesis 2:19, would have to have God creating land animals at some point on the sixth day–this presumably could have been an instantaneous process–then creating a male human on the same day, then bringing each sort of animal and bird before the man, and having him give it a name, culiminating finally in the formation of a woman from the man’s rib–all in the space of a single day. ---
**Author:** ![quixotic78](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/3ab097/32.png) [@quixotic78](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/quixotic78)\ **Post date:** [March 24, 2001, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creationists-please-help-me-understand/59149/13 "2001-03-24T00:27:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by cmkeller \* > **When reading in the original Hebrew, it’s clear that the proper translation is "The LORD G-d had created…etc."** The tense using the word “had [past participle]” is the _pluperfect_. The past perfect uses the word “has” or “have” before the past participle. Pluperfect: I had gone to the store when she called. Past perfect: I have gone to the store before. Quibbling Quix