# Creator laments creation of die Antibabypille **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575 "2009-01-09T20:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/21 "2009-01-09T22:30:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Maybe I’ll set my daughter up with a designer ice floe business. There isn’t going to be ice floes by then. Ha! ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/22 "2009-01-09T22:38:16Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s interesting how ignorant of basic demographic issues this entire forum is. Every demographic concern is treated as some sort of bigotry. Because historically, that’s exactly what it’s been. “The Chinese/Hispanics/Catholics/Islamics/blacks/whatever are going to outbreed us and our culture is DOOOOMED ! !” Yellow Peril anyone ? This isn’t anything new. > [@mswas](#): > > Really the ideology is from the other direction. ‘I should be able to fuck for fun and you can’t stop me!’, of course the same people saying this will have no problem voting to have my kids forced to support them in their old age via Social Security and Medicare etc… The all important right to enjoy sex unfettered is the only concern, and all other demographic concerns are dismissed. In a thread which originates from a guy complaining about people using birth control, that’s a silly claim. No, it people like the guy in the OP who want to make sure children are being pumped out, regardless of other people’s desires or ability to support them. > [@mswas](#): > > It’s also interesting how everyone sheds crocodile tears for the loss of the indigenous culture of wherever, but the plain fact that the Austrian and other Germanic cultures are disappearing before our eyes by being far below replacement rate is a thing only racists care about. That’s what happens when you refuse to let people assimilate. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/23 "2009-01-09T22:47:33Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because historically, that’s exactly what it’s been. “The Chinese/Hispanics/Catholics/Islamics/blacks/whatever are going to outbreed us and our culture is DOOOOMED ! !” Yellow Peril anyone ? This isn’t anything new. I don’t understand this. It seems you are saying that it’s bigotry because it’s bigotry. > [@](#): > > That’s what happens when you refuse to let people assimilate. What exactly should the Austrians be doing differently? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/24 "2009-01-09T23:26:38Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > :rolleyes: Oh, Ok then. I bow to your superior debating skills. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/25 "2009-01-09T23:37:11Z")
> [@Cluricaun](#): > > There isn’t going to be ice floes by then. Ha! That’s why they are designer…duh! ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/26 "2009-01-09T23:39:18Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > Because historically, that’s exactly what it’s been. “The Chinese/Hispanics/Catholics/Islamics/blacks/whatever are going to outbreed us and our culture is DOOOOMED ! !” Yellow Peril anyone ? This isn’t anything new. This isn’t even really a response. The existance of hyperbole doesn’t change the fact that Austrians are breeding way below replacement rate. > [@](#): > > In a thread which originates from a guy complaining about people using birth control, that’s a silly claim. No, it people like the guy in the OP who want to make sure children are being pumped out, regardless of other people’s desires or ability to support them. Right, and those same people when they get old are going to want social services regardless of the younger generation’s desires or ability to support them. > [@](#): > > That’s what happens when you refuse to let people assimilate. Yeah I guess it is. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/27 "2009-01-09T23:40:52Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Oh, Ok then. > > I bow to your superior debating skills. I posed my argument in the next post, if you are incapable of parsing two posts in a row that’s not really my concern. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 9, 2009, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/28 "2009-01-09T23:53:44Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > In a thread which originates from a guy complaining about people using birth control, that’s a silly claim. No, it people like the guy in the OP who want to make sure children are being pumped out, regardless of other people’s desires or ability to support them. You might want to notice that the quote in the OP also _explicitly_ mentions a concern over demographic disbalance destabilizing the economy: > [@](#): > > Djerassi explained that Austria, which is now home to more seniors over 65 than children under 15, would soon enter “an impossible situation” as the lopsided population would result in a working class too small to support the needs of elderly pensioners. Which is not to say that he’s not _also_ opposed to sex for pleasure itself for religious reasons (that’s a sentiment which can be gleaned from the quote in the OP as well). It would seem unfair to attribute him with racism though, since that thoery cannot be substantiated from the quote provided. ---
**Author:** ![Strinka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/strinka/32/512_2.png) [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/29 "2009-01-10T00:02:55Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > This isn’t even really a response. The existance of hyperbole doesn’t change the fact that Austrians are breeding way below replacement rate. And the solution to that is to force people to have unwanted children? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/30 "2009-01-10T00:12:20Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > And the solution to that is to force people to have unwanted children? No ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/31 "2009-01-10T00:20:15Z")
> [@Strinka](#): > > And the solution to that is to force people to have unwanted children? What makes you think he _has_ a solution? It’s allowable to recognize a problem without having an answer to it. I propose Soylent Green. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/32 "2009-01-10T00:30:44Z")
> [@clairobscur](#): > > There isn’t the slightest reference to immigrants or to the colour of the babies. He makes a reference to “demographic suicide,” but maybe he means the country should allow _more_ immigrants to counter the graying of the population. I thought at first glance that he meant he white part of the population is committing suicide by not reproducing and letting too many immigrants in. So I’ll withdraw that for now unless I hear some reason to think otherwise. It’s a real issue in Europe, I believe [tell me if you think I’m wrong; only one of us is European], but maybe not where Djerassi was going with it. > [@mswas](#): > > The idea of a creaking and aged population is actually a real and serious issue as social welfare programs depend on the working population being at some sort of optimal ratio as compared to those not working. Yes, it is, and it’s coming to America eventually. European governments are trying various methods to deal with it - I think it’s Sweden that has greatly expanded paternity leave and I believe they even give financial incentives for couples having children - but I don’t know what works, if anything. Blaming the pill is stupid, though, and not only does it not solve anything, it misses the point because the pill was a scientific inevitability and part of a historical trend. There’s nothing wrong with the separation of sex from reproduction and people don’t have any kind of obligation to return something to the system by popping out workers to replace the social benefits they’ve enjoyed. It is true, however, that entitlement programs need to be adjusted and cut when the population can’t sustain them. To me it’s a separate issue from what Djerassi is talking about, though. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/33 "2009-01-10T00:34:05Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s also interesting how everyone sheds crocodile tears for the loss of the indigenous culture of wherever, but the plain fact that the Austrian and other Germanic cultures are disappearing before our eyes by being far below replacement rate is a thing only racists care about. Simply put: those cultures don’t count. There is a certain mindset that finds cultures valuable and important in perfect inverse proportion to their difference from one’s own, and their demise to be regretted and acted on only accordingly. If the BlongoBlongo tribe in New Guinea is dying out because all of their kids are moving to the city, joining the modern world, and intermarrying, this is a tragedy that should be resisted. If a European nation is on the verge of massive transformation because the population is increasingly coming from a very different culture, this is a good and healthy thing, and only a racist would think otherwise. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/34 "2009-01-10T00:44:10Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Simply put: those cultures don’t count. There is a certain mindset that finds cultures valuable and important in perfect inverse proportion to their difference from one’s own, and their demise to be regretted and acted on only accordingly. > > If the BlongoBlongo tribe in New Guinea is dying out because all of their kids are moving to the city, joining the modern world, and intermarrying, this is a tragedy that should be resisted. > > If a European nation is on the verge of massive transformation because the population is increasingly coming from a very different culture, this is a good and healthy thing, and only a racist would think otherwise. I prefer the more consistent position of not giving a fig if _any_ culture dies out, myself. (Assuming it dies of abandonment, that is; I do frown upon cultures being eliminated by malicious extermination programs.) ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/35 "2009-01-10T00:50:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > It’s also interesting how everyone sheds crocodile tears for the loss of the indigenous culture of wherever, but the plain fact that the Austrian and other Germanic cultures are disappearing before our eyes by being far below replacement rate is a thing only racists care about. Get them to enjoy schnitzel and all will be well. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/36 "2009-01-10T00:51:00Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No Then what? Serious question. Are you saying that people should feel a patriotic/cultural duty to procreate at replacement rates? Because I’d reject that as well. The fact is that cultures are fluid things. _Should be_ fluid things. You can’t take a snapshot of Austria now or 25 years ago or 25 years from now and say that is how Austria should remain. That’s just silly. I’m pretty certain people will still be making _mohnstrudel_ in Vienna in 50 years. If the guy making it happens to be of something other than German descent, so what? Heck the extent of modern day Austria’s “Germanness” is itself less than 100 years old - Slovenia was split directly off Austrian crown lands ( the duchy of Carniola and parts of the duchies of Carinthia and Styria ). For most of its history “Austria”, even core Austria ( excluding Bohemia, Hungary and the Balkans ) was significantly Slavic. It ain’t today. Tragedy? Honestly there is nothing intrinsically sacred about the Yanomamo, either. But I don’t think the analogy is an exact one. Austria and its people are not going to disappear, they’re just going to change some. Which is both normal and healthy. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/37 "2009-01-10T00:51:57Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Yes, it is, and it’s coming to America eventually. European governments are trying various methods to deal with it - I think it’s Sweden that has greatly expanded paternity leave and I believe they even give financial incentives for couples having children - but I don’t know what works, if anything. Blaming the pill is stupid, though, and not only does it not solve anything, it misses the point because the pill was a scientific inevitability and part of a historical trend. There’s nothing wrong with the separation of sex from reproduction and people don’t have any kind of obligation to return something to the system by popping out workers to replace the social benefits they’ve enjoyed. It is true, however, that entitlement programs need to be adjusted and cut when the population can’t sustain them. To me it’s a separate issue from what Djerassi is talking about, though. Well the reason it hasn’t come to America already is because we allow more immigration. It’s much more a part of our culture to do so. The idea that Austria won’t receive a serious shock to its system by accepting an influx of about 30% of its population as immigrants is pretty naive though. The problem with that also is that they would have to bring in young immigrants which can be sort of like a brain drain. Not so much that it’s skilled population if leaving but that it is bringing in unskilled laborers to replace their population. The culture itself will reel from it. Europe is in a severe demographic crisis, and the blaise attitude that anyone who cares is either a prude or a racist is incredibly simplistic. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/38 "2009-01-10T00:55:39Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > Then what? Serious question. > > Are you saying that people should feel a patriotic/cultural duty to procreate at replacement rates? Because I’d reject that as well. No, I don’t believe that. > [@](#): > > The fact is that cultures are fluid things. _Should be_ fluid things. You can’t take a snapshot of Austria now or 25 years ago or 25 years from now and say that is how Austria should remain. That’s just silly. I’m pretty certain people will still be making _mohnstrudel_ in Vienna in 50 years. If the guy making it happens to be of something other than German descent, so what? Heck modern day Austria’s “Germanness” is itself less than 100 years old - modern day Slovenia was split directly off Austrian crown lands ( the duchy of Carniola and parts of the duchies of Carinthia and Styria ). Sure, I agree. Personally I would turn the entire world into the United States of America and let people travel freely anywhere they want. > [@](#): > > Honestly there is nothing intrinsically sacred about the Yanomamo, either. But I don’t think the analogy is an exact one. Austria and its people are not going to disappear, they’re just going to change some. Which is both normal and healthy. Well we’ll see where the economy is in 15 years won’t we? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/39 "2009-01-10T00:56:42Z")
Looks like someone better get cracking at anti-aging. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/40 "2009-01-10T00:57:02Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well we’ll see where the economy is in 15 years won’t we? A different argument, but that’s why fans of social welfare systems in countries with gentrifying populations should be welcoming immigrants with open arms :). [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575.md?page=3)