# Creator laments creation of die Antibabypille **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575 "2009-01-09T20:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/41 "2009-01-10T00:58:04Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well the reason it hasn’t come to America already is because we allow more immigration. Cite please? I don’t know how immigration rates differ between the U.S. and Europe. > [@](#): > > The idea that Austria won’t receive a serious shock to its system by accepting an influx of about 30% of its population as immigrants is pretty naive though. Where’d 30 percent come from? > [@](#): > > Europe is in a severe demographic crisis, and the blaise attitude that anyone who cares is either a prude or a racist is incredibly simplistic. The demographic issues as they relate to social programs are real. Like I said, though, it appears the influx of immigrants has lead to a backlash in some countries that gave power to people like Haider. Do you have an explanation other than bigotry? ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/42 "2009-01-10T00:58:15Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Europe is in a severe demographic crisis, and the blaise attitude that anyone who cares is either a prude or a racist is incredibly simplistic. “Europeans are not having enough children.” Concern you state. “I’m sorry I invented the pill because it means people can have sex for fun.” Not the concern you state. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/43 "2009-01-10T01:11:39Z")
> [@furt](#): > > Simply put: those cultures don’t count. There is a certain mindset that finds cultures valuable and important in perfect inverse proportion to their difference from one’s own, and their demise to be regretted and acted on only accordingly. > > If the BlongoBlongo tribe in New Guinea is dying out because all of their kids are moving to the city, joining the modern world, and intermarrying, this is a tragedy that should be resisted. > > If a European nation is on the verge of massive transformation because the population is increasingly coming from a very different culture, this is a good and healthy thing, and only a racist would think otherwise. It may be more a matter of perception than outright hostility to one’s own culture. There is a tendency to view one’s own culture as the default, particularly when it is a locally or regionally dominant one, and hence as the antithesis of the exotic and interesting. This can lead to the point of thinking one has no culture at all. In fact, it’s arguable that most of us, as children, are first introduced to the concept of culture as the customs followed by people in distant lands. While this is an oversimplification, the case can be made that the value of a culture is best seen by somebody outside it. I would assert that an Austrian expert on New Guinea is better able to articulate the richness of life among the BlongoBlongos to other outsiders than The MacBlongo himself, chief of all the Blongo clans. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/44 "2009-01-10T01:34:51Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Cite please? I don’t know how immigration rates differ between the U.S. and Europe. > **[Immigration to the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States#Demographics)** > > Immigration has been a major source of population growth and cultural change in the United States throughout much of its history. As of January 2025, the United States has the largest immigrant population in the world in absolute terms, with 53.3 million foreign-born residents, representing 15.8% of the total U.S. population—both record highs. While the United States represented about 4% of the total global population in 2024, 17% of all international migrants resided in the United States. > [@](#): > > Immigration is now what keeps America growing. According to the UN the typical American woman today bears 1.93 children. That is below the 2.1 “replacement” rate required to keep a population stable over time, absent immigration. The Census Bureau estimates the US population will grow from 281 million in 2000 to 397 mil in 2050 with expected immigration, but only to 328 mil with zero immigration. "If we have zero immigration with today’s low birthrates the American population would eventually begin to shrink. [32] > > A new report from the Pew Research Center projects that by 2050, non-Hispanic whites will account for 47% of the population, down from the 2005 figure of 67%.[33] Non-Hispanic whites made up 85% of the population in 1960.[34] It foresees the Hispanic population rising from 14% in 2005 to 29% by 2050.[35] The Asian population is expected to more than triple by 2050. Overall, the population of the United States is due to rise from 296 million in 2005 to 438 million, with 82% of the increase coming from immigrants.[36] > > In 35 of the country’s 50 largest cities, non-Hispanic whites were at the last census or are predicted to be in the minority.[37] In California, non-Hispanic whites slipped from 80% of the state’s population in 1970 to 43% in 2006.[38][39] If you want me to delve deeper than wikiality I can do that as well. > [@](#): > > Where’d 30 percent come from? It was my rough estimate. If Austria’s replacement rate is 1.4% then I figured that meant that essentially it was breeding at 70% replacement rate, so therefore it would need 30% immigration to make up for its lack of breeding. It is possible that my math is way off, I am relatively innumerate. > [@](#): > > The demographic issues as they relate to social programs are real. Like I said, though, it appears the influx of immigrants has lead to a backlash in some countries that gave power to people like Haider. Do you have an explanation other than bigotry? Well the problem with the ‘bigotry’ notion is that it assumes that ethnic preservation in and of itself is a negative trait. There are many reasons why a sudden influx of outsiders coming in will put stresses on a population. Yes, bigotry is a contributing factor, but the word bigotry is used far more often than it is actually useful in describing what is going on. When immigrant populations come into a nation they put real stresses on the native population, that’s just the reality of things. Bigotry is sort of a pat doctrinaire word that will get all the liberals to nod sagely and cease questioning the matter any further. It’s sort of like a punctuation mark these days, it lets people know that it’s ok to shut up and stop thinking. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/45 "2009-01-10T01:36:47Z")
> [@Tamerlane](#): > > A different argument, but that’s why fans of social welfare systems in countries with gentrifying populations should be welcoming immigrants with open arms :). Well if all that matters is economics, but if there were any poster on this board who I would expect to understand that Marxism is kind of silly and that not everything comes down to economics, that culture really and truly matters to most people, I would expect it to be you. It’s possible that I judged you wrong though. 😉 You’re just one of the few posters who actually has some valuable insights into cultural matters around here. You are right that culture is a fluid thing, but no one wants to be directly responsible for the downturn in their own culture. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/46 "2009-01-10T01:38:55Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > “Europeans are not having enough children.” Concern you state. “I’m sorry I invented the pill because it means people can have sex for fun.” Not the concern you state. Well yes, he is right, that his invention is really and truly leading to the demise of his ethnic group. It’s not abstract for him like it is for you and I, it’s very real and immediate, it’s his primary legacy. He more than most other people in the world can directly link how the fruits of his labor have led to the demise of Europe as he knew it. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/47 "2009-01-10T01:42:01Z")
> [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](#): > > It may be more a matter of perception than outright hostility to one’s own culture. There is a tendency to view one’s own culture as the default, particularly when it is a locally or regionally dominant one, and hence as the antithesis of the exotic and interesting. This can lead to the point of thinking one has no culture at all. > > In fact, it’s arguable that most of us, as children, are first introduced to the concept of culture as the customs followed by people in distant lands. While this is an oversimplification, the case can be made that the value of a culture is best seen by somebody outside it. I would assert that an Austrian expert on New Guinea is better able to articulate the richness of life among the BlongoBlongos to other outsiders than The MacBlongo himself, chief of all the Blongo clans. People in Europe are generally rather aware of their own culture. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/48 "2009-01-10T01:42:29Z")
I know Americans aren’t having kids at the replacement rate, **mswas**. I was asking about immigration trends in the U.S. as compared to Europe. You said America allows more immigration. That was the part I wanted a cite for. > [@](#): > > Well the problem with the ‘bigotry’ notion is that it assumes that ethnic preservation in and of itself is a negative trait. If it’s expressed as “immigrants are destroying our culture and we need to keep them out,” yeah, I’m going to go out on a limb and call that negative. That’s not liking your own culture, it’s hating somebody else’s. Other posters have already pointed out that that attitude makes no sense when a country’s social programs are going to collapse without immigration. > [@](#): > > Bigotry is sort of a pat doctrinaire word that will get all the liberals to nod sagely and cease questioning the matter any further. Spare me the claptrap about liberals, if you don’t mind. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/49 "2009-01-10T01:46:02Z")
_"Carl Djerassi…described couples who regularly contracept_ as “wanting to enjoy their schnitzels while leaving the rest of the world to get on with it…”\* “Enjoy their schnitzels”? Is this guy Spike Jones’ evil twin? _“Most Austrians enjoy sexual intercourse”_ Um, cite? I thought they spent most of their time eating pastry and going to Mozart festivals. “Contracept” is a verb? Are there also people who regularly “laxatize”?\*\* \*\*I don’t want to know. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/50 "2009-01-10T02:00:46Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I know Americans aren’t having kids at the replacement rate, **mswas**. I was asking about immigration trends in the U.S. as compared to Europe. You said America allows more immigration. That was the part I wanted a cite for. > **[Immigration to the United States](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_the_United_States#Demographics)** > > Immigration has been a major source of population growth and cultural change in the United States throughout much of its history. As of January 2025, the United States has the largest immigrant population in the world in absolute terms, with 53.3 million foreign-born residents, representing 15.8% of the total U.S. population—both record highs. While the United States represented about 4% of the total global population in 2024, 17% of all international migrants resided in the United States. > [@](#): > > As of 2006, the United States accepts more legal immigrants as permanent residents than any other country in the world.[1] In 2006, the number of immigrants totaled 37.5 million.[2][3] > **[Immigration to Europe](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration_to_Europe#Immigration_from_outside_of_Europe)** > > Immigration to Europe has a long history, but increased substantially after World War II. Western European countries, especially, saw high growth in immigration post 1945, and many European nations today (particularly those of the EU-15) have sizeable immigrant populations, both of European and non-European origin. In contemporary globalization, migrations to Europe have accelerated in speed and scale. Over the last decades, there has been an increase in negative attitudes towards immigration,... > [@](#): > > Eurostat data[12] reveal that some EU member states are currently receiving large-scale immigration. The EU in 2005 had an overall net gain from international migration of 1.8 million people, which accounted for almost 85% of Europe’s total population growth that year. Sorry about that, I knew what you wanted but got distracted halfway through. Maybe I caught a glimpse of the fantasy threesome thread and couldn’t stop thinking about being in the middle of a Kate Winslet-Rachel Weisz sandwich. 😃 > [@](#): > > If it’s expressed as “immigrants are destroying our culture and we need to keep them out,” yeah, I’m going to go out on a limb and call that negative. That’s not liking your own culture, it’s hating somebody else’s. Other posters have already pointed out that that attitude makes no sense when a country’s social programs are going to collapse without immigration. Unless they really are destroying your culture. Of course it’s not the optimal position but I wouldn’t say it makes no sense. Essentially the argument there is that preserving the body politic is of greater value than preserving the culture. One of the problems people cite in Europe is their trouble integrating immigrant populations. Right now much of western Europe’s immigration comes from Eastern Europe, where they have even greater demographic problems than in the west. > [@](#): > > Spare me the claptrap about liberals, if you don’t mind. _shrugs_ Just explaining why I think the term bigot is a fairly hollow word. I would make a similar comment about Conservative dogma if it were the dogma holding back the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![erislover](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/71e660/32.png) [@erislover](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/erislover)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/51 "2009-01-10T02:09:32Z")
There are a great many reasons why people might not have as many children as they used to. The pill is only one of them. For instance, from the [Population Reference Bureau](http://www.prb.org/pdf06/06WorldDataSheet.pdf)’s 2006 data [pdf link], which happened to be the first thing that turned up in my search, the percentage of married women 15-49 using modern contraception is 58% for “more developed” areas, while that number drops only to 53% for “less developed” areas, yet the projected population change for 2050 is wildly out of proportion to this, with “more developed” experiencing 4% change while “less developed” would see 50% change, even though they expected a net migration out of “less developed” areas to “more developed” ones. Certainly this has to do with the age of the population. But old people can’t conceive whether they had the pill or not. So we’re talking about going back 40 years and asking whether the pill really had this effect. If so, we’d expect these up-and-coming populations to “die out” for the same reason. Something tells me the pill won’t be the end of all culture on earth. Or even any one culture. Just a hunch, but there are ways to encourage childbirth, if that’s the desire (like more subsidies for moms and dads). Most data I’ve seen–which I must admit isn’t much–indicates that it is the ability to be successful that stops women from getting pregnant. The benefits of being childless seem, on the whole, to be better than the benefits of having children for most women. You want more kids? Tilt the balance back. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/52 "2009-01-10T02:10:01Z")
**Jackmanny** It’s a translation on a pro-life website. ---
**Author:** ![brazil84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/8491ac/32.png) [@brazil84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brazil84)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/53 "2009-01-10T02:12:47Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Well yes, he is right, that his invention is really and truly leading to the demise of his ethnic group. Actually his ethnic group is apparently Jewish, which is stable or growing slightly. I imagine the Stormfronters would have a field day with this. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/54 "2009-01-10T02:13:57Z")
> [@erislover](#): > > There are a great many reasons why people might not have as many children as they used to. The pill is only one of them. > > For instance, from the [Population Reference Bureau](http://www.prb.org/pdf06/06WorldDataSheet.pdf)’s 2006 data [pdf link], which happened to be the first thing that turned up in my search, the percentage of married women 15-49 using modern contraception is 58% for “more developed” areas, while that number drops only to 53% for “less developed” areas, yet the projected population change for 2050 is wildly out of proportion to this, with “more developed” experiencing 4% change while “less developed” would see 50% change, even though they expected a net migration out of “less developed” areas to “more developed” ones. Certainly this has to do with the age of the population. But old people can’t conceive whether they had the pill or not. So we’re talking about going back 40 years and asking whether the pill really had this effect. If so, we’d expect these up-and-coming populations to “die out” for the same reason. > > Something tells me the pill won’t be the end of all culture on earth. Or even any one culture. Just a hunch, but there are ways to encourage childbirth, if that’s the desire (like more subsidies for moms and dads). Most data I’ve seen–which I must admit isn’t much–indicates that it is the ability to be successful that stops women from getting pregnant. The benefits of being childless seem, on the whole, to be better than the benefits of having children for most women. You want more kids? Tilt the balance back. Well I have no stake in it. I am quite deracinated. I’m a cosmopolitan American without much in the way of roots. But I can sympathize with those who see the demise of their culture coming up quick. I think we will see the demise of culture on a great level in our lifetimes, but that’s to be expected, its the natural consequence of globalization. I’m just hoping it doesn’t mean the cheap condo trend we saw for the last three decades. I’m tired of going to places known for their great architecture and seeing some ugly modern monstrosity there. I hope that the demise of individual cultures will not necessarily mean an end to beauty overall, though that does rather seem to be the trend. I’m hoping it’s a 20th century thing. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/55 "2009-01-10T02:14:57Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Sorry about that, I knew what you wanted but got distracted halfway through. Maybe I caught a glimpse of the fantasy threesome thread and couldn’t stop thinking about being in the middle of a Kate Winslet-Rachel Weisz sandwich. 😃 What were we talking about again? > [@](#): > > Unless they really are destroying your culture. Which they aren’t. A culture is destroyed when its last members die off or when mass murder happens. Or what’s going on in Tibet, where China does appear to be trying to eradicate native culture (by moving Chinese in, not by killing Tibetans). That’s a great deal more extreme than what we’re discussing in this thread. Which is pretty much where **Der Trihs** ’s comments come in. Many different waves of immgration to the U.S. were met with bigotry and hysteria, and now the older ones are considered part of America. It happened with the Irish, with Jews, with Eastern Europeans, and with Asians. But the current immigrants, of course, are different. _This time_ it’s serious. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/56 "2009-01-10T02:16:40Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Well duh. Austria’s life expectancy is now 79.45 years. Or just about 15 years past Djerassi’s 65 year old cut off age. So the problem isn’t a lack of young people, it’s to many old people. Wonder if he would be happier if the life expectancy was shorter? Problem isnt old people. Old non working people however… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/57 "2009-01-10T02:18:43Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > What were we talking about again? The difference in immigration between the US and Europe. > [@](#): > > Which they aren’t. A culture is destroyed when its last members die off or when mass murder happens. Or what’s going on in Tibet, where China does appear to be trying to eradicate native culture (by moving Chinese in, not by killing Tibetans). That’s a great deal more extreme than what we’re discussing in this thread. No, that’s not necessarily so. Pop culture can destroy culture, immigration can destroy culture. There are plenty of things that can. I saw the culture of the East Village in NYC where we both live die pretty rapid death. It’s kind of on life support now. > [@](#): > > Which is pretty much where **Der Trihs** ’s comments come in. Many different waves of immgration to the U.S. were met with bigotry and hysteria, and now the older ones are considered part of America. It happened with the Irish, with Jews, with Eastern Europeans, and with Asians. But the current immigrants, of course, are different. _This time_ it’s serious. :rolleyes: Right, that was to the US, and this is to Europe. Two different things. Europe isn’t made up of immigrants. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/58 "2009-01-10T02:22:44Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Pop culture can destroy culture, immigration can destroy culture. A culture can change into something you don’t like, but it’s only your opinion that it was destroyed. That point is useless to argue and it’s a process that is mostly useless to resist. The culture here is changing all the time and everybody always thinks it used to be better. I’m not going to be Pangloss and pretend everything must be the best it’s ever been, but there’s an obvious pattern there. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/59 "2009-01-10T02:24:07Z")
To put a rest to this. I am not saying bigotry isn’t a part of it. The word I’d use would be ethnocentrism, but the point is bigotry isn’t an explanation, it’s insufficient. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 10, 2009, 2:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/60 "2009-01-10T02:26:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > A culture can change into something you don’t like, but it’s only your opinion that it was destroyed. That point is useless to argue and it’s a process that is mostly useless to resist. The culture here is changing all the time and everybody always thinks it used to be better. I’m not going to be Pangloss and pretend everything must be the best it’s ever been, but there’s an obvious pattern there. Well, yes, that’s true, but old cultural forms can be superseded, not just morph into something else. Like when Hip Hop culture moved all over the world. That’s not a morphing of culture, it’s a supersession. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575.md?page=4)