# Creator laments creation of die Antibabypille **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 9, 2009, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575 "2009-01-09T20:06:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/141 "2009-01-12T16:33:09Z")
> [@Indistinguishable](#): > > I said I was bowing out, and so I will, but I will address just this last post: You feel I’ve distorted your words, and I may have, but not on purpose. The relevant posts from which I took them are, in order, [#60](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10673484&postcount=60), [#57](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10673459&postcount=57), and especially the last part of [#86](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10677259&postcount=86), with its clear sarcasm. My interpretation of your tone was also influenced significantly by post [#54](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=10673447#post10673447). You may claim that you never actually literally said certain cultural changes were bad, as such, but I would argue in response that such a stance is disingenuous; one does not consistently use such phrasing as “death”, “demise”, “destruction”, etc., without being aware of the tone this transmits (as commented upon by **Chessic Sense** in post [#79](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10677038&postcount=79), and documented again in post [#81](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=10677131&postcount=81), though this only re-quotes many of the above). I never said I used some of the keywords you chose, just that I didn’t mean any of what you claim I mean. I never said Hip Hop going worldwide was bad, I just used it as an example of cultural supersession that leads to the dying out of tradition. I never said anything about pop music taking out the culture of the East Village, I have no clue where you got that from considering the culture of the East Village was largely based around pop music and pop art. Punk rock was replaced by Japanese noodle shops. So clearly you just have no idea what you’re talking about. But as you said, you bowed out. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/142 "2009-01-12T16:37:25Z")
**Indistinguishable** I have a homework assignment for you. Go to New Orleans have breakfast at the Court of Two Sisters, while you are eating your Eggs Benedict and drinking the fresh squeezed Mimosa in the courtyard, imagine what it must have been like when the pirate Jean LeFitte killed three men in three duels the same night in that very courtyard. Then imagine what it would look like if you bulldoze the block and put up a mini-mall. Imagine yourself not at the Court of Two Sisters, but at a Starbucks instead. If they bulldozed the French Quarter and put up a mall would you even bother going to New Orleans? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/143 "2009-01-12T16:56:27Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Who is objecting? > > Man you people have bigotry on the brain. It’s interesting that you can’t talk about culture without people talking about bigotry. Chinese musicians playing Beethoven isnt western culture, only a piece of it. What about Chinese-American musicians playing Beethoven? Are Austria’s High Culture institutions going out of business? What about the [Konservatorium Vien University?](http://www.konservatorium-wien.ac.at/index.php?&sub1=1&sub2=51&sub3=52) > [@](#): > > Every year, around 850 young people from more than 50 countries study with about 250 renowned artists and teachers. Is nobody buying pastries? (Low Culture counts, too.) Unfortunately, I’ve never made it to Austria. Share with us the issues that troubled you on your last visit. Culture is not genetic. Insisting otherwise _will_ bring up those charges of bigotry. Which you apparently keep hearing… ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/144 "2009-01-12T17:07:59Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > What about Chinese-American musicians playing Beethoven? Are Austria’s High Culture institutions going out of business? What about the [Konservatorium Vien University?](http://www.konservatorium-wien.ac.at/index.php?&sub1=1&sub2=51&sub3=52) > > Is nobody buying pastries? (Low Culture counts, too.) Unfortunately, I’ve never made it to Austria. Share with us the issues that troubled you on your last visit. > > Culture is not genetic. Insisting otherwise _will_ bring up those charges of bigotry. Which you apparently keep hearing… No that’s the bias of those responding. I didn’t say culture is genetic at all. But Mom’s strudel recipe might not get passed on if there are not children to pass it to. The problem here is that it’s sort of a sport to ‘spot the bigot’. It’s more important than actually giving thought to cultural matters. It’s vulgar nonsense and the true bigots are the ones who keep the word in their quick draw holster. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/145 "2009-01-12T17:35:34Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > No that’s the bias of those responding. I didn’t say culture is genetic at all. But Mom’s strudel recipe might not get passed on if there are not children to pass it to. > > The problem here is that it’s sort of a sport to ‘spot the bigot’. It’s more important than actually giving thought to cultural matters. It’s vulgar nonsense and the true bigots are the ones who keep the word in their quick draw holster. What about the strudel served in Vienna’s cafes? Are those recipes in danger of disappearing? Aren’t they written down? From what I’ve seen, tourists aren’t the only patrons of those fine establishments. What specific elements of Austrian culture are in danger? I’ve studied a bit of Anthro. Please feel free to go into detail. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/146 "2009-01-12T17:51:03Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > What about the strudel served in Vienna’s cafes? Are those recipes in danger of disappearing? Aren’t they written down? From what I’ve seen, tourists aren’t the only patrons of those fine establishments. > > What specific elements of Austrian culture are in danger? I’ve studied a bit of Anthro. Please feel free to go into detail. You clearly have not studied this thread. Go ahead and reread it and get back to me. I’ll give you a hint, in a particular post I spoke of how many times I’ve been to Austria. Find it and then we’ll talk. Read the discussion so I don’t need to repeat myself in order to address your leading questions. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/147 "2009-01-12T18:10:24Z")
The bottom line is that if the cultural demise being lamented were Australian aboriginal, African, Papuan or Amazonian such innuendo wouldn’t even be injected into the discussion. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/148 "2009-01-12T18:15:22Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > You clearly have not studied this thread. Go ahead and reread it and get back to me. I’ll give you a hint, in a particular post I spoke of how many times I’ve been to Austria. Find it and then we’ll talk. > > Read the discussion so I don’t need to repeat myself in order to address your leading questions. OK, I found the post: “What do I care if Austria collapses? I’ve never been there.” Culture is not genetic. I’ve said that several times, but you haven’t studied this thread, either. ---
**Author:** ![Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ecccb3/32.png) [@Skald\_the\_Rhymer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skald_the_Rhymer)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/149 "2009-01-12T18:20:44Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’ve gotten the impression that some white Europeans are concerned that the number of white babies is declining, especially when compared to the number of immigrant babies. Could be a touch of racism in his concern. A **touch**? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/150 "2009-01-12T18:20:53Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > OK, I found the post: “What do I care if Austria collapses? I’ve never been there.” > > Culture is not genetic. I’ve said that several times, but you haven’t studied this thread, either. I never said it was genetic, I said it was a way of life. What is your point then exactly? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/151 "2009-01-12T18:44:46Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ahh yes, the old post-modern navel gazing saw about defining something clinically and then denying it’s existence. _yawn_ > > If you cannot understand the point about fads based around trinkets vs culture then I’ve got not interest in continuing. Culture exists it’s a commonly used term and more post-modern debasement of language is just more wasting of everyone’s time. Now, now. Post modernism has been an important component of Western art and thought for almost a century and a half. **LHoD** is just doing his part to keep the venerable traditions of our culture alive. ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/152 "2009-01-12T19:03:37Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I never said it was genetic, I said it was a way of life. What is your point then exactly? Specifically, what points of the Austrian “way of life” are in danger? What cultural elements are endangered? My point: You are upset that too few white Austrians are being born. Even though you don’t give a crap about Austria. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/153 "2009-01-12T19:05:00Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Now, now. Post modernism has been an important component of Western art and thought for almost a century and a half. **LHoD** is just doing his part to keep the venerable traditions of our culture alive. Thank you Miller for putting it all into perspective. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/154 "2009-01-12T19:06:35Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > Specifically, what points of the Austrian “way of life” are in danger? What cultural elements are endangered? > > My point: You are upset that too few white Austrians are being born. Even though you don’t give a crap about Austria. I am actually not terribly upset about it. I really don’t care. I can just understand why someone would. I’d be upset if they tore down the French Quarter and built a Mall there. That’s an aspect of culture I’d lament the loss of, that is personally dear to me. Austria has no personal linkage for me. It’s not like they’re producing any Beethovens or Mozarts anymore. The destruction of American culture is disturbing to me. At a certain point it’ll be like, “Why travel? One strip mall is as good as the next.” ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/155 "2009-01-12T19:08:15Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Now, now. Post modernism has been an important component of Western art and thought for almost a century and a half. **LHoD** is just doing his part to keep the venerable traditions of our culture alive. But culture doesn’t exist remember? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/156 "2009-01-12T19:12:20Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > I am actually not terribly upset about it. I really don’t care. I can just understand why someone would. I’d be upset if they tore down the French Quarter and built a Mall there. That’s an aspect of culture I’d lament the loss of, that is personally dear to me. Austria has no personal linkage for me. It’s not like they’re producing any Beethovens or Mozarts anymore. > > The destruction of American culture is disturbing to me. At a certain point it’ll be like, “Why travel? One strip mall is as good as the next.” The OP was not about architecture. It was about Austrians not having enough Austrian babies. I can understand your backing down… The culture of New Orleans is more than buildings. It involves people–many of whom no longer have homes there. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/157 "2009-01-12T19:14:26Z")
> [@Bridget\_Burke](#): > > The OP was not about architecture. It was about Austrians not having enough Austrian babies. I can understand your backing down… From what? You haven’t made a point yet. > [@](#): > > The culture of New Orleans is more than buildings. It involves people–many of whom no longer have homes there. Right, but why is that lamentable? Culture doesn’t matter right? ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/158 "2009-01-12T19:28:52Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > From what? You haven’t made a point yet… > > Right, but why is that lamentable? Culture doesn’t matter right? I made the point. You screamed like a little girl–why do people always bring up racism when you come around? It’s, like, _so_ unfair. I’m not the one who said culture doesn’t matter. (Pay attention!) But New Orleans culture is not lily white–so you’d rather concentrate on the buildings. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/159 "2009-01-12T19:40:28Z")
> [@mswas](#): > > Ahh yes, the old post-modern navel gazing saw about defining something clinically and then denying it’s existence. _yawn_ > > If you cannot understand the point about fads based around trinkets vs culture then I’ve got not interest in continuing. Culture exists it’s a commonly used term and more post-modern debasement of language is just more wasting of everyone’s time. Uh…are you sure you’re responding to my post? Because if you are, you really need to reread it–your response shows a tremendous misunderstanding of the post. Hint: it doesn’t fit into the categories you’ve prefabbed for dismissing your opponents. If you think it does, you’ve misread it. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2009, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575/160 "2009-01-12T19:52:00Z")
Here are some debate tips for you **mswas** , which I fully expect you to ignore: - Keep your tone of discussion civil and open. Far too often you come across very aggressively. Your points may then be frequently dismissed out of hand, and you miss the opportunity for a good debate. - When engaging in debate, don’t reply to poster’s points with a simple dismissive rolleye, or by calling the posters or their points stupid This does not get you off on the right footing. - Make every effort to read and understand what people have written, and realize that it is probably not a personal attack on you. - Stop and think that other people may have an opinion which is valid. If it is not one that is shared by you - then explain why not. Try not to simply dismiss their opinion outright while looking like you have not even considered it. - Study logical fallacies, particularly if you are going to quote them in a thread. Accusing someone of \*ad hominem \* is particularly amusing if you call them and their arguments stupid in the same post. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creator-laments-creation-of-die-antibabypille/480575.md?page=9)