# Credibility of the Southern Poverty Law Center **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 27, 2015, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314 "2015-07-27T13:50:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/81 "2015-07-28T16:08:38Z")
The NRA is a 501©(4), and thus also tax-exempt. Its donations are not tax-deductible, though. ---
**Author:** ![bup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/6bbea6/32.png) [@bup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bup)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/82 "2015-07-28T16:16:12Z")
Oh. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/83 "2015-07-28T16:17:28Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > What groups do eco-terrorists, animal rights groups, and anarchists hate and harass? From what I can see, these groups attack property, not people. If they do attack people, it’s not due to their race, religion, sexuality, or nationality. Ecoterrorist groups do in fact target people - case in point, the Animal Liberation Front, which goes after researchers. The ALF is arguably a hate group - which is probably why the Southern Poverty Law Center [is interested in its activities](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2010/fall/another-researcher-apparently-targeted-). Whoops, looks like the SPLC _does_ publicize violent extremist activity from the left of the political spectrum. Note that the Anti-Defamation League [has also tracked ecoterrorist groups](http://archive.adl.org/learn/ext_us/ecoterrorism.html). ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/84 "2015-07-28T16:32:13Z")
Here’s what I find interesting. Here we have a group that goes after violent extremists, as well as some non-violent groups that preach hatred and intolerance. And the right seems desperate to find some reason to attack and denounce them. “They have too much money”. “They don’t also attack xyz.” It’s like they’re looking for something, anything, with which to attack this group. Why? They do good work. They’ve won cases that have financially ruined hate groups that have fomented violence. Doesn’t that count for something? Are they perfect? I don’t know. I doubt it. Nothing in this world is perfect. But why use that fact to attack groups that overall do good things? Why the desperation to paint them as biased? Are people upset that they go after the KKK? I would hope not. If you’re so concerned about them not attacking supposed lefty hate groups then support or form an organization that does, but don’t attack an organization that’s doing good things simply because they don’t do every good thing. What is the agenda here? Why the hatred for this organization? ---
**Author:** ![Fotheringay-Phipps](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/d9b06d/32.png) [@Fotheringay-Phipps](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fotheringay-Phipps)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/85 "2015-07-28T16:37:04Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > What is the agenda here? Why the hatred for this organization? Both the title of this thread and content of the OP are about the credibility of the SPLC, not whether they’re good or bad. So I think your question about “hatred for this organization” is misplaced. Basically the question is: if the SPLC says an organization (in this case, the CIS) is a hate group, is this an unbiased organization making that determination, such that you should put a lot of stock in that determination? Or is it an organization which tends to be quick to classify RW organizations as hate groups, such that you need to debate the issue on its merits and can’t rely too heavily on the SPLC determination? ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/86 "2015-07-28T16:46:01Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > What groups do eco-terrorists, animal rights groups, and anarchists hate and harass? Loggers, people who wear fur, and people who work for a living, respectively. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/87 "2015-07-28T17:51:17Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Loggers, people who wear fur, and people who work for a living, respectively. > > Regards, > Shodan But they are not hate groups. They don’t exist for the purpose of hating and tormenting “Loggers, people who wear fur, and people who work for a living”. They have agendas (whether we agree with them or not) so naturally they are at odds with people who disagree about those agendas. That is not the same as groups who hate people for being Jewish, or black, or gay, or white, or Christian, all of which fit the definition used by the SPLC. These are the kind of right-wing talking points I’m talking about. Thank you **Shodan** for illustrating so well what I was talking about in my previous post. They aren’t legitimate complaints against the SPLC, which is what this thread is looking for. Even if they were hate groups, it doesn’t mean that the SPLC is wrong about the other groups that they do oppose. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/88 "2015-07-28T18:17:52Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > But they are not hate groups. They don’t exist for the purpose of hating and tormenting “Loggers, people who wear fur, and people who work for a living”. They have agendas (whether we agree with them or not) so naturally they are at odds with people who disagree about those agendas. That is not the same as groups who hate people for being Jewish, or black, or gay, or white, or Christian, all of which fit the definition used by the SPLC. I’m not clear on what you’re trying to say here. Are you saying that if an organization has an agenda, they can’t be a hate group? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/89 "2015-07-28T18:21:24Z")
I think he’s saying that if the organization’s agenda is focused on behavior rather than people it’s okay. I’m not sure it’s as simple as that, though. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/90 "2015-07-28T19:55:15Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Loggers, people who wear fur, and people who work for a living, respectively. > > Regards, > Shodan What a droll little scamp! 'Course, be better if he posted more substance and content rather than just drive-by japes. ---
**Author:** ![davidm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidm/32/225_2.png) [@davidm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/davidm)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/91 "2015-07-28T20:35:19Z")
Of course that’s not what I’m saying but it’s a very clever attempt at misrepresenting it (or maybe not, maybe it’s genuinely what you thought I was saying. I really can’t tell). Having an agenda does not make a group okay. A group can have an agenda but it’s a terrible agenda. The point is about the mission of the SPLC. Their mission is to defend defend people who are targeted by hate groups but who don’t have the resources to defend themselves. Just because the SPLC doesn’t target a group it doesn’t necessarily mean that they approve of that group. It may be simply that the group doesn’t fit into their mission, isn’t considered harmful enough to bother with, or has simply flown under their radar. The problem in this thread is that people are trying to define groups as hate groups simply because their agenda may impact someone somewhere. By that definition all groups are hate groups (what agenda doesn’t impact someone?), so the term becomes meaningless. This is unfortunately a standard rhetorical tactic: blur the obvious definition of something to the point that it becomes meaninglessly all-inclusive and then accuse your opponent of being selective and biased. Everyone then ends up arguing in circles and being accused of nonsensical opinions (such as “all agendas are bad”). Mission accomplished. Conversation is squelched. Confusion reigns. American politics as usual. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/92 "2015-07-28T20:52:20Z")
Only a conspiracy of angels could fight for truth and justice and never fuck it up. I admire someone willing to work for justice. Might think a little better of him if he kept his lawn neat and tidy. But not by much. ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/93 "2015-07-28T21:00:53Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > The point is about the mission of the SPLC. Their mission is to defend defend people who are targeted by hate groups but who don’t have the resources to defend themselves. Just because the SPLC doesn’t target a group it doesn’t necessarily mean that they approve of that group. It may be simply that the group doesn’t fit into their mission, isn’t considered harmful enough to bother with, or has simply flown under their radar. This is the part of their mission that I was unaware of (but now that you mention it, the “Poverty” in their name makes more sense). But then why include all the anti-gay groups? Gays have plenty of “resources to defend themselves”. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/94 "2015-07-28T21:07:15Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Gays have plenty of “resources to defend themselves”. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![HurricaneDitka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/96bed5/32.png) [@HurricaneDitka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HurricaneDitka)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/95 "2015-07-28T21:14:21Z")
> [@boytyperanma](#): > > Cite? [http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/) ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/96 "2015-07-28T21:34:05Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/) _That_’s your evidence? Really? [Mary](http://williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/headlines/beyond-stereotypes-poverty-in-the-lgbt-community/), [please](http://talkpoverty.org/2014/10/09/poverty-in-the-lgbt-community/). (Also, I’ll see your Atlantic article and raise [an Atlantic article](http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2014/03/the-myth-of-gay-affluence/284570/).) Gay and bisexual women are more likely to live in poverty than heterosexual women. Between 20 and 40 percent of homeless youth in the US are LGBT. Transgender individuals are twice as likely to be unemployed than cisgender individuals, and four times as likely to make less than $10k/year. LGBT individuals on the whole are nearly twice as likely to experience food insecurity. So yeah, that “gays are all rich” dog won’t hunt. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 9:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/97 "2015-07-28T21:45:01Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > [http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/](http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/07/gay-marriage-supreme-court-politics-activism/397052/) You’re not very good at this whole providing evidence of your claims thing. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Tildrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e95f7d/32.png) [@Tom\_Tildrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Tildrum)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 10:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/98 "2015-07-28T22:27:53Z")
[Here](http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/printgroupProfile.asp?grpid=6989) is the most comprehensive write-up I could find of antipathy from the right toward the SPLC. It’s obviously partisan, and I’m not endorsing any of it, but it covers the bases for criticism. Broadly, the arguments are twofold: 1) The SPLC very much overstates the number of hate groups in the US, because when checked, a large number of these groups are just one or two people, or inactive, or just a mail drop. Supposedly, around 1/4 of the list of groups is comprised of local chapters of just four organizations. 2) The SPLC conflates a significant amount of ordinary political speech (with which it disagrees) with hate. From the left, Alexander Cockburn once harshly [criticized](http://www.counterpunch.org/2009/05/15/king-of-the-hate-business/) the SPLC, basically saying that Dees has gotten rich going after socially meaningless little targets: “Dees and his hate-seekers scour the landscape for hate like the arms manufacturers inventing new threats and for the same reason: it’s their staple.” Harpers has [gone](http://harpers.org/blog/2010/03/hate-immigration-and-the-southern-poverty-law-center/) [after](http://harpers.org/blog/2007/11/the-southern-poverty-business-model/) the SPLC on similar grounds in the [past](http://harpers.org/archive/2000/11/the-church-of-morris-dees/) (paywall). > [@davidm](#): > > But it’s not the case that they are the same as, for example, The American Enterprise Institute. The SPLC does not regard virtually all right-wingers as “haters”, which is what you claimed. Not sure which way you meant that, but the SPLC has indeed [tagged](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2003/summer/into-the-mainstream?page=0,1#2) the AEI as extremist, due to D’Souza’s opposition to affirmative action and Charles Murray’s Bell Curve. Also FAIR, the Von Mises Institute, the Olin Foundation, and Scaife. Rand Paul and Steve King are on their list, as is Glenn Beck. > [@davidm](#): > > I doubt the SPLC says much about groups that promote laissez-faire economics, or deny human caused climate change or attempt to end Social Security or Medicare. Morris Dees [criticized](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/news/mlk-s-words-just-as-relevant-today) “the weakening of Social Security” as essentially the extension of Jim Crow. Mitt Romney’s remark about Russia being the no. 1 geopolitical foe was [implied](http://www.splcenter.org/home/2012/spring/bringing-back-birch) to have come from the John Birch Society. They [cited](http://www.splcenter.org/sites/default/files/downloads/publication/splc_statement_carson_feb2015.pdf) (pdf) Ben Carson’s opposition to the ACA as “extremism.” They have [included](http://www.jasonrichwine.com/2014/07/splc-republican-opposition-to-common.html) opposition to the Common Core in their Hatewatch blog. > [@davidm](#): > > And they don’t go after just white racists. The also target black separatist groups including the New Black Panther Party: > [List of organizations designated by the Southern Poverty Law Center as hate groups - Wikipedia](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_organizations_designated_by_the_Southern_Poverty_Law_Center_as_hate_groups#Black_separatist) Note, however, that they [classify](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2012/summer/30-to-watch) Shabazz, and presumably the NBPP as well, as right-wing. > [@davidm](#): > > It’s like they’re looking for something, anything, with which to attack this group. Well, that’s precisely how many conservatives see the SPLC. For example, there was considerable [resentment](http://patterico.com/2013/02/06/floyd-lee-corkins-i-picked-my-shooting-targets-from-an-splc-hate-map/) on the right over the efforts by the SPLC and others to paint Jared Loughner as a right-winger influenced by right-wing thinking, and it did not escape them that the SPLC had little to say about Floyd Corkins and his stated influences. > [@Measure\_for\_Measure](#): > > As noted above, critiques about them making money hand over fist are nonsense. Fair point, but it’s a tactic that the SPLC itself uses on its adversaries, making an [issue](http://www.splcenter.org/get-informed/intelligence-report/browse-all-issues/2014/summer/The-Godfather) of the amount David Horowitz gets paid from his non-profit, for instance. It’s kind of to be expected that it will get thrown back at them. ---
**Author:** ![Haberdash](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f9ae1b/32.png) [@Haberdash](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Haberdash)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/99 "2015-07-28T22:29:20Z")
> [@Tom\_Tildrum](#): > > ]From the left, Alexander Cockburn once harshly [criticized](http://www.counterpunch.org/2009/05/15/king-of-the-hate-business/) the SPLC, basically saying that Dees has gotten rich going after socially meaningless little targets: “Dees and his hate-seekers scour the landscape for hate like the arms manufacturers inventing new threats and for the same reason: it’s their staple.” Harpers has [gone](http://harpers.org/blog/2010/03/hate-immigration-and-the-southern-poverty-law-center/) [after](http://harpers.org/blog/2007/11/the-southern-poverty-business-model/) the SPLC on similar grounds in the [past](http://harpers.org/archive/2000/11/the-church-of-morris-dees/) (paywall).] As I pointed out earlier, Cockburn’s antipathy towards the SPLC may have something to do with the fact that his website frequently published Holocaust denial and anti-Semitic conspiracy theories of all sorts, and Harper’s is hard-left enough that they may have similar concerns. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 28, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314/100 "2015-07-28T23:54:30Z")
_Harper’s_? Hard left? Do they follow the Trotskyist line of _Better Homes and Gardens_? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credibility-of-the-southern-poverty-law-center/726314.md?page=6)