# credit card fraud Q **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [May 8, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189 "2007-05-08T02:08:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/21 "2007-05-08T16:43:54Z")
[QUOTE=Jurph] In your professional capacity as a fraud investigator, have you ever seen the pattern I described? That is: tiny charge to verify the card, followed by several large charges to get maximum value off the card? [/QUOTE] I heard that thieves would use a stolen credit card or stolen credit card number first at a pay-at-the-pump gas station (a purchase made not face to face and with few cameras) to verify that it hadn’t been disabled before using it elsewhere. And that’s the reason that many of these pumps now require you to enter the billing zip code before they accept the transaction. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/22 "2007-05-08T17:05:04Z")
[QUOTE=Joey P] The CVV is only used when the number is keyed in. It proves that you are holding the card in your hand (or that the person giving you the number is holding the card in their hand). [/QUOTE] As a slight nitpick, it really only proves that they have had the card in their hand or seen the back of it at some point. Those numbers are only 3 or 4 digits long and easy enough to memorize. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/23 "2007-05-08T18:05:46Z")
When my card was cloned, something very similar happenned: the fraudster used it to buy credit for their mobile phone. Not a large amount at all. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/24 "2007-05-08T18:13:00Z")
I think the zip code thing is a pretty lame verification method- I would think more often than not, the zip code the item is stolen in would be the zip code of the owner- especially in small towns with one zip code- why can’t they do the mothers birthday thing instead? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 6:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/25 "2007-05-08T18:45:55Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] So you are telling me that either I have shit for brains or the Bank of America with its state of the fucking art computer system got the date, time, and location of when the card was swiped wrong. :rolleyes: Riiiiight. :dubious: Mind you we are not talking about when the charge was posted, but rather when the card was swiped at point of sale. Furthermore when the bank read back to me all of the rest of my charges to verify if they were correct, all the dates, times and locations were correct. No I don’t have any clue how they picked up the transaction was bogus\*, apparently neither do you. :rolleyes: \*If you read the OP closely that is one of the two questions I am asking. I don’t ask questions I know the answer to. [/QUOTE] Due to various system problems, the time stamp can be off. And it could have been off for all transactions at that PO for that day. I can only guess is that somehow the system burped and scrambled some transaction numbers, which caused them to verify all those transactions. And, no your problem does not fit any fraud pattern I am aware of which is why I am so curious. And, if there was real fraud with your real number, the SOP for _any amount_ of fraud is to _cancel that account number immediatel_y and send you another cards, which your OP does not indicate they did. Yes, Jurph, sometimes they do run a small charge through to make sure everything is right. But they would (as Dewey Finn) said run it through some place where there are no cameras, no Face to Face, and especially no Federal investigators. The PO is the last place I would use as a trial run. Cameras, FtF, and Postal Inspectors, not to mention other Federal agencies. **Bad.** If the Bank really thought that someone had made a real copy of your card with your number on it, they would have canceled your account, mailed you new cards (with a new number), and you’d have to sign an affidavit saying you had not authorized those charges. And, the pattern of activity by the “scamster” doesn’t make sense either. So, that is why I very very much doubt that someone has made a copy of your card wih your real number on it. Rick, I do not think that you have “shit for brains”, it is just that your " guess" just doesn’t make sense. ---
**Author:** ![alice\_in\_wonderland](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alice_in_wonderland/32/176_2.png) [@alice\_in\_wonderland](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alice_in_wonderland)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/26 "2007-05-08T18:50:57Z")
> [@](#): > > And, if there was real fraud with your real number, the SOP for any amount of fraud is to cancel that account number immediately and send you another cards, which your OP does not indicate they did. **DrDeth** , I assume you missed this bit of the OP: [QUOTE=Rick] Bottom line is they shut down the card, and I will have new ones on Wednesday. [/QUOTE] It sounds like **Rick’s** credit card company was confident enough that this was fraud to go to the trouble and expense of cancelling old cards and sending out new ones. Also, FWIW, I had a fraudulant charge show up on one of my credit cards a few years ago for about $50 at Cotton Ginny. I can’t imagine that CG is a popular fraud target either, but there you go. ---
**Author:** ![Wee\_Bairn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/90db22/32.png) [@Wee\_Bairn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wee_Bairn)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/27 "2007-05-08T18:51:28Z")
I have personally been on the phone with the cc compnay, bitching about an unauthorized charge, only to realize that I did in fact make it, so its not impossible. Although I DO have shit for brains 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/28 "2007-05-08T19:13:36Z")
[QUOTE=alice\_in\_wonderland] **DrDeth** , I assume you missed this bit of the OP: It sounds like **Rick’s** credit card company was confident enough that this was fraud to go to the trouble and expense of cancelling old cards and sending out new ones. . [/QUOTE] Whoops! :smack: Sorry, apparently \*my \*cranium is stuffed with steer manure this morning. Not enough coffee? 😃 But still the pattern is strange, and I would like to know what alerted the Bank. 😕 I did the same as Wee Bairn. To my defense- the company name for the charge born no relation to where I shopped, the time was impossible and the location appeared to be another state. This was just because the parent company for the store did their charges at a central clearinghouse. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/29 "2007-05-08T19:38:40Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] But still the pattern is strange, and I would like to know what alerted the Bank. 😕 [/QUOTE] Speaking as someone in the bank security “backshop” but not as someone actively involved in retail card fraud detection, we have our ways, and some of them do need to be kept secret, otherwise fraudsters will know what’s being looked for. It’s sort of like Coke. You can go out and buy a bottle of Coke and drink it. Nestled in among the “natural and artificial flavors” is the secret stuff. If Coca-Cola divulged the ingredients, they’d be out of business soon, even though it’s right there in your hand. Same goes for fraud detection. Your card is right there in your hand (or in a crook’s hand) and there’s secret stuff that we’re watching as the transactions come in. If we tell you what we’re watching, the crooks will know what to do differently and they’ll adjust their methods to compensate. Just be glad your bank is actively monitoring things and could be bothered to trap a measly $20 transaction before someone rang up thousands of dollars and either drained the checking account (for a debit card) or put you over limit. (for a regular credit card) ---
**Author:** ![Mama\_Zappa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/71e660/32.png) [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/30 "2007-05-08T20:03:26Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] …Yes, Jurph, sometimes they do run a small charge through to make sure everything is right. But they would (as Dewey Finn) said run it through some place where there are no cameras, no Face to Face, and especially no Federal investigators. The PO is the last place I would use as a trial run. Cameras, FtF, and Postal Inspectors, not to mention other Federal agencies. … [/QUOTE] Many (most? all?) post offices now have self-serve kiosks, where you get nowhere near a human postal worker. I can’t comment on whether there’s camera surveillance of those kiosks; I imagine so but since there’s no cash involved, perhaps not (then again, one could presumably use one of those kiosks to get postage to mail something unsavory / illegal / dangerous, so perhaps there is… there, did I qualify that enough? :)). It would seem to be a non-mainstream choice for testing a card but not an impossible one. I don’t know enough about credit card fraud detection to comment on how they made the determination in the OP’s case. The handful of times I’ve had an account flagged for fraud turned out to be quite incorrect (I was making legitimate purchases each time, and they got declined :mad: ), and the one time I _was_ a victim of credit card fraud, the bank didn’t flag anything at all (a phone-in order at Nordstrom, caught when I reviewed my credit card bill that month). Those of you who mention having to key in ZIP code, or last 4 digits - how common is that? The gas pumps hereabouts have stickers saying to do so, but it’s never been required - there’s no flashing thing that says “enter ZIP now”. And I’ve never been asked to input the last 4 digits, that’s a new one on me. ---
**Author:** ![tofergregg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tofergregg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tofergregg)\ **Post date:** [May 8, 2007, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/31 "2007-05-08T23:12:12Z")
[QUOTE=gotpasswords] Speaking as someone in the bank security “backshop” but not as someone actively involved in retail card fraud detection, we have our ways, and some of them do need to be kept secret, otherwise fraudsters will know what’s being looked for. [/QUOTE] Man…now I want to know what secret methods the credit card companies use! Bank: “It looks like someone just swiped **Rick’s** card with his left hand, and **Rick** is _right_ handed! Cancel it.” or…“That swipe had an acceleration of 2.8m/s/s, 0.5m/s/s greater than **Rick’s** normal swipe. Call him to confirm whether or not he has been to the gym lately.” or…“ **Rick** just bought a _whole new book_ of $0.41 Star Wars stamps, and he has only posted five of the $0.39 Judy Garland stamps he bought last week. Send in the Feds.” ---
**Author:** ![Canadjun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/76d3ee/32.png) [@Canadjun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Canadjun)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/32 "2007-05-09T00:29:58Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Yes, Jurph, sometimes they do run a small charge through to make sure everything is right. But they would (as Dewey Finn) said run it through some place where there are no cameras, no Face to Face, and especially no Federal investigators. The PO is the last place I would use as a trial run. Cameras, FtF, and Postal Inspectors, not to mention other Federal agencies. **Bad.** [/QUOTE] I have no comment about the details of what was done, where it was done, whether it was fraud or a mistake, etc. HOWEVER, I am a fan of mailing lists like [This Is True](http://www.thisistrue.com/) (well worth paying for the “Premium” version) and similar lists and web sites, and have long ago come to the conclusion that a great many criminals out there have IQs substantially less than their shoe size. Just because **you** (and I) wouldn’t use a place with cameras and security as a trial run does not mean that a brain-dead crook wouldn’t. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/33 "2007-05-09T00:59:34Z")
[QUOTE=tofergregg] Man…now I want to know what secret methods the credit card companies use! Bank: “It looks like someone just swiped **Rick’s** card with his left hand, and **Rick** is _right_ handed! Cancel it.” or…“That swipe had an acceleration of 2.8m/s/s, 0.5m/s/s greater than **Rick’s** normal swipe. Call him to confirm whether or not he has been to the gym lately.” or…“ **Rick** just bought a _whole new book_ of $0.41 Star Wars stamps, and he has only posted five of the $0.39 Judy Garland stamps he bought last week. Send in the Feds.” [/QUOTE] Yeah, me too. 🙂 Actually I was talking with my wife, and we think our dog has seen too many TV ads for [Bush’s Baked Beans](http://www.bushbeans.com/jaynduke/ads.php) (check out the 4th video down) and is trying to sell my credit card numbers. **DrDeth** I don’t know what to tell you, but I can assure you that the charge was not mine. As far as the pattern goes, the only other time I have been a victim of CC fraud was about 10 years ago, a gas station attendant took my CC number and started using it. (pay at the pump was down, and he made an imprint of my card.) He (or his friends) made about 4 purchases in a week, all for less than $20. American Express caught it, and called me. This was on a corporate card that went to a zillion dollars. Beats me why they didn’t try to buy big screen, but they did not. **gotpasswords** I’m very glad, and impressed. Whatever voodoo you do, you do well. ---
**Author:** ![gotpasswords](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c57346/32.png) [@gotpasswords](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gotpasswords)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/34 "2007-05-09T01:29:43Z")
[QUOTE=Rick] He (or his friends) made about 4 purchases in a week, all for less than $20. American Express caught it, and called me. This was on a corporate card that went to a zillion dollars. Beats me why they didn’t try to buy big screen, but they did not. [/QUOTE] See the comment above about crooks’ IQs being less than their shoe size. 🆒 As for the dog - check your phone bill carefully. There’s probably some calls to 976-WOOF… ---
**Author:** ![Ferret\_Herder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e47774/32.png) [@Ferret\_Herder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ferret_Herder)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/35 "2007-05-09T01:35:19Z")
[QUOTE=gotpasswords] See the comment above about crooks’ IQs being less than their shoe size. 🆒 [/QUOTE] At a previous job of mine, someone in a neighboring office was fired for stealing credit card info from a customer. They caught her because she used the credit card to pay for her own utility bills. :smack: I was wondering if the credit card was getting renewed soon and someone had stolen a new card in the mail, but most of the time cards seem to come with stickers all over them requiring activation from the account holder’s phone number, or answering security questions. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/36 "2007-05-09T01:49:28Z")
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder] I was wondering if the credit card was getting renewed soon and someone had stolen a new card in the mail, but most of the time cards seem to come with stickers all over them requiring activation from the account holder’s phone number, or answering security questions. [/QUOTE] Ohh, you might have just nailed it. A few months ago I was running a credit card for a customer (it was a telephone order) and I get a message to call for a phone authorization. I called my CC processor, they set up a confernce call with the issuing bank and the bank told me that the card was declined becuase it wasn’t activated yet. So it was no big deal in my case, I called the customer, he activated the card and all was well. I wonder, however, if the issuing bank called him later to confirm it. ---
**Author:** ![amarone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e0b2c6/32.png) [@amarone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarone)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 2:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/37 "2007-05-09T02:45:59Z")
[QUOTE=Ferret Herder] At a previous job of mine, someone in a neighboring office was fired for stealing credit card info from a customer. They caught her because she used the credit card to pay for her own utility bills. :smack: [/QUOTE] Someone in my previous neighborhood stole a credit card and used it to buy things online to be delivered to their home address. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/38 "2007-05-09T02:57:38Z")
[QUOTE=gotpasswords] See the comment above about crooks’ IQs being less than their shoe size. 🆒 [/quote] NO argument with this. > [@](#): > > As for the dog - check your phone bill carefully. There’s probably some calls to 976-WOOF… :smack: That’s what those calls are. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/39 "2007-05-09T05:37:17Z")
[QUOTE=Canadjun] I have no comment about the details of what was done, where it was done, whether it was fraud or a mistake, etc. HOWEVER, I am a fan of mailing lists like [This Is True](http://www.thisistrue.com/) (well worth paying for the “Premium” version) and similar lists and web sites, and have long ago come to the conclusion that a great many criminals out there have IQs substantially less than their shoe size. Just because **you** (and I) wouldn’t use a place with cameras and security as a trial run does not mean that a brain-dead crook wouldn’t. [/QUOTE] Yes, that is true. Criminals are not only cowardly and superstitious, but dumb too. 😃 But it is the mix of smart (got CC numbers, made a fake card _with_ electronic info, and smart enough to give it a trial run) combined with the stupid of trying it at the PO? 😕 But Ferret Herder asks an excellent question- Rick- was it about time for a new card? If s dumbass fuckwit just stole the card from the mail, and just tried it forst place he went to- and the CC company knew that particular C had not been activated- that woudl explain a lot. ---
**Author:** ![Rick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/9f8e36/32.png) [@Rick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rick)\ **Post date:** [May 9, 2007, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189/40 "2007-05-09T05:51:06Z")
Possibly, the exp date on my cards was 07/07. I had not considered this. I was not expecting my new cards for a bit yet, but you might have hit on the answer. [Guinness guys]Brilliant![/GG] [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-fraud-q/403189.md?page=3)