# Credit card minimums. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 21, 2009, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409 "2009-11-21T15:50:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/21 "2009-11-27T16:04:43Z")
> [@JFLuvly](#): > > I just called my music store owning friend and he said he is charged 1.7% on credit cards and 0.5% on debit. Add in the cost of paper (rolls for the printout are not cheap) and the cost of the machine and I think it adds up a bit. He is probably not a good example as he deals in expensive merchandise, but I can see how the costs would cut into the profit for a small mom and pop corner store. That’s odd. Normally debit cards are a flat rate, usually somewhere between 15 and 50 cents whether the charge is 10 cents or $1000. Which is why stores try to get you to use debit and the credit card companies are always running raffle type things where you get an entry each time you _sign_ when you use your card. Also, yeah, that paper can run as much as a dollar a roll, but we managed to negotiate free paper from our processor. ---
**Author:** ![JFLuvly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ac91a4/32.png) [@JFLuvly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JFLuvly)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/22 "2009-11-27T16:10:10Z")
Joey P, Might be a Canadian thing. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/23 "2009-11-27T16:41:12Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > I often wonder why it’s not OK for merchants to have a surcharge for credit card purchases, but seemingly fine to instead have a “cash discount.” How is that not essentially the same thing? My guess is that they can set their own rules regarding what happens with CC purchases (makes sense), but they probably aren’t allowed to tell merchants what they can and can’t do with their cash. I remember reading somewhere that they had to make it very clear that it was a discount for using cash as opposed to a surcharge for using credit. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/24 "2009-11-27T16:44:40Z")
> [@Colophon](#): > > And in any case, a shop owner is free to refuse any kind of payment they like - they 're not under any obligation to sell their stock to anyone. That’s not exactly what I’ve heard. If a customer at his local FastGrab takes an Almond Joy to the counter and presents a card, the merchant is prohibited by the card company from saying “I don’t accept cards for that kind of purchase”, If he refuses the purchase in any way, and the non-customer complains (whines), the merchant will get some heat from the issuer of the card. And theres the rub for me. A retail trancaction is _supposed_ to between customer and merchant, without interference from any outside party. Not even the tax collector gets in between the transaction. If a customer doesn’t like the terms of the purchase he’s well within his rights to make his purchase elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/25 "2009-11-27T17:12:00Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > That’s not exactly what I’ve heard. If a customer at his local FastGrab takes an Almond Joy to the counter and presents a card, the merchant is prohibited by the card company from saying “I don’t accept cards for that kind of purchase”, If he refuses the purchase in any way, and the non-customer complains (whines), the merchant will get some heat from the issuer of the card. > And theres the rub for me. A retail trancaction is _supposed_ to between customer and merchant, without interference from any outside party. Not even the tax collector gets in between the transaction. If a customer doesn’t like the terms of the purchase he’s well within his rights to make his purchase elsewhere. The merchant is free to refuse to accept credit cards at all. However, if he wishes to accept credit cards, he has to sign a contract with the credit card companies - and that contract contains the restrictions we’re discussing. If the merchant doesn’t like the terms of the agreement he signed, he’s well within his rights to cancel it and stop accepting credit cards. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/26 "2009-11-27T17:45:50Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > The merchant is free to refuse to accept credit cards at all. However, if he wishes to accept credit cards, he has to sign a contract with the credit card companies - and that contract contains the restrictions we’re discussing. > > If the merchant doesn’t like the terms of the agreement he signed, he’s well within his rights to cancel it and stop accepting credit cards. Again, not exacrly what I’m asking. Is the merchant _required_ to accept the cc for all purchases? I thought a merchant could “refuse service to anyone”. I’m not saying he could demand cash, but just nix the whole transaction. I don’t think someone has a right to demand service, regardless of payment method. That’s a huge thing right now with anti-abortion pharmacy owners right to refuse to sell the “abortion pill”. And the customer there has a prescription. ---
**Author:** ![Absolute](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b2d939/32.png) [@Absolute](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Absolute)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2009, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/27 "2009-11-27T18:16:23Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > Again, not exacrly what I’m asking. Is the merchant _required_ to accept the cc for all purchases? I thought a merchant could “refuse service to anyone”. I’m not saying he could demand cash, but just nix the whole transaction. I don’t think someone has a right to demand service, regardless of payment method. > That’s a huge thing right now with anti-abortion pharmacy owners right to refuse to sell the “abortion pill”. And the customer there has a prescription. Yes, the merchant is required. He signed a contract with the credit card company. That’s the whole point. The pharmacy owners haven’t signed any contracts obligating them to sell the abortion pill. But Bob, the owner of Bob’s Bakery, has signed a contract that says he has to accept credit cards for all purchases if he wants to accept them for any. Not liking the terms of the contract is not an excuse for violating it. ---
**Author:** ![ladyfoxfyre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ad7895/32.png) [@ladyfoxfyre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ladyfoxfyre)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/28 "2009-11-28T01:36:49Z")
Not to derail, but Plan B is not the abortion pill. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/29 "2009-11-28T01:56:12Z")
> [@Absolute](#): > > Yes, the merchant is required. He signed a contract with the credit card company. That’s the whole point. > > The pharmacy owners haven’t signed any contracts obligating them to sell the abortion pill. But Bob, the owner of Bob’s Bakery, has signed a contract that says he has to accept credit cards for all purchases if he wants to accept them for any. Not liking the terms of the contract is not an excuse for violating it. Very true. However, there’s not a lot of evidence that credit card companies enforce the terms of their own contracts. For example, if you complain to VISA that a certain store has a minimum purchase requirement, in violation of their contract, they’ll thank you for your call but they won’t do anything about it. ---
**Author:** ![Picard\_Kills\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/dec6dc/32.png) [@Picard\_Kills\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Picard_Kills_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/30 "2009-11-28T02:30:28Z")
I might be on the other end of the spectrum here, but I always feel bad when I use a debit/credit card for purchases from any small business owner. There is one donut shop where I put an extra dollar on the bill to cover the fee of the charge. In this case, the operator of the shop is also the owner, and he has really good donuts. Maybe I’m a sucker, but it makes me feel better when I leave. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/31 "2009-11-28T16:55:06Z")
> [@ladyfoxfyre](#): > > Not to derail, but Plan B is not the abortion pill. I don’t understand your reply. 😕 Really. I’m not being difficult. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/32 "2009-11-28T17:34:57Z")
> [@BrandonR](#): > > On the other hand though, I wonder how much increased business he gets due to accepting credit cards? I don’t know how many times I’ve had to skip over a cash-only store or restaurant to go to one that accepts credit cards since I never carry cash. There’s also a cost for cash. 1. Banks charge for depositing large amounts of cash. 2. Large amounts of cash call for armored car pick up, which is expensive. 3. Extra hold-up insurance. 4. The extra time to count, then recount it at closing= extra labor charges. We have had this discussion many times, and overall, credit cards are very much worth it for the merchant. That being said, I have sympathy for the small merchant with low average sales. There, he should post a sign saying something like “We appreciate your business, but in order to hold costs down, please pay in cash on sales under $5 if possible. If you can’t, we understand, and we still want your business.” I’d make a special effort to have cash on hand for such a reasonable request- however, I do try and pay everything under $5 with cash anyway. ---
**Author:** ![mangeorge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d78d45/32.png) [@mangeorge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mangeorge)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/33 "2009-11-28T17:54:37Z")
To be honest, it’s not a matter of money for me. It’s the corproate bullying. There’s a reason for the rule, and it’s power. I hate being pushed around and I hate seeing it happen to others. The merchant is the cc company’s _client_, fer crissakes! ---
**Author:** ![MitzeKatze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ad7895/32.png) [@MitzeKatze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MitzeKatze)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/34 "2009-11-28T17:54:37Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > That being said, I have sympathy for the small merchant with low average sales. There, he should post a sign saying something like “We appreciate your business, but in order to hold costs down, please pay in cash on sales under $5 if possible. If you can’t, we understand, and we still want your business.” I’d make a special effort to have cash on hand for such a reasonable request- however, I do try and pay everything under $5 with cash anyway. It’s not the same as a retail business, but my Veterinarian’s office has such a sign/notice. In their case the sign reads, “We incur charges to process your credit card which eventually get passed on to the customer. Please allow us to run your debit card as a debit with a pin or pay in cash or by check whenever possible. Thank you for your assistance in keeping [Name of Vet] an affordable option for you and your pets.” ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/35 "2009-11-28T17:56:43Z")
I used to get rather indignant at places that had credit card minimums, and would mutter about them violating their merchant agreements, but after a while i asked myself, why do i give a fuck about their merchant agreement? If i’m buying an 89c candy bar, paying with a credit card probably wipes out all of the meager profit, and actually costs the store-owner money to make the sale. It’s hard enough for small businesses to make money as it is, without me waving my dick around about how i have the right put 89c on my Visa card. Yes, i know they’re violating their merchant agreement, but i really don’t give a fuck. Also, based on all the reading that i’ve done about this subject in consumer stories, and on various consumer message boards, it seems that the card companies themselves don’t really give a fuck either. People often report this type of violation of the merchant agreement to Visa or Mastercard, and most times the only result is a sympathetic clucking from the person on the other end of the line, or an autogenerated email saying that your complaint has been received. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/36 "2009-11-28T18:02:13Z")
> [@mangeorge](#): > > To be honest, it’s not a matter of money for me. It’s the corproate bullying. There’s a reason for the rule, and it’s power. I hate being pushed around and I hate seeing it happen to others. > The merchant is the cc company’s _client_, fer crissakes! Yeah, i agree. People argue, “Well, the merchant doesn’t \*have \* to take credit cards at all if they don’t want to abide by the rules.” But the fact is that, for most businesses, _not_ taking them simply isn’t an option, and the CC companies constitute an effective oligopoly that can do pretty much whatever they want. If the merchant doesn’t like AmEx or Visa or Mastercard’s terms, what’s she gonna do? Take Discover? Start her own credit card company? ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/37 "2009-11-28T18:02:19Z")
The C/C machine in my store malfunctioned and of my next 10 customers, I’d say 8 of them didn’t have the cash for the transactions so had to go to an ATM and get it. In the case of small transactions using cards it is often because we are out of a stock of a bigger item that they were also looking for. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/38 "2009-11-28T18:29:35Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > I used to get rather indignant at places that had credit card minimums, and would mutter about them violating their merchant agreements, but after a while i asked myself, why do i give a fuck about their merchant agreement? If i’m buying an 89c candy bar, paying with a credit card probably wipes out all of the meager profit, and actually costs the store-owner money to make the sale. It’s hard enough for small businesses to make money as it is, without me waving my dick around about how i have the right put 89c on my Visa card. But, as others have said upthread, that is simply a cost of doing business that is done for the convenience of the customer; no different than having janitors to clean the floors, or having to pay the gas company to keep the inside of the store warm. To me your complaint would be like, “I know that this grocery store is filthy,infested with maggots, and it is 41 degrees in here, but this guy is a small business owner trying to make a living. I shouldn’t call the board of health over these conditions because having to keep the place clean will cut into his profit margins” I’ll bet if you took one of those free deli samples while only spending 89c, you’ve screwed the business owner as well. But again, that is the cost of business. And the next time you go in and buy $250 worth of groceries, you make up for it and more. Sure, your 89c purchase on your Visa will cut down, possibly eliminate any profit he makes off of the sale, but the overall fact that he accepts credit cards increases his total sales and total profit. And the condition of accepting credit cards means he has to accept cards for all purchases. I’m just not seeing the issue here. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/39 "2009-11-28T18:38:02Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > But, as others have said upthread, that is simply a cost of doing business that is done for the convenience of the customer; no different than having janitors to clean the floors, or having to pay the gas company to keep the inside of the store warm. You can keep repeating the same arguments all you like; doesn’t mean i agree with them. The percentage of your income that it costs you to clean the floors does not change just because someone chooses to buy a single candy bar rather than a full basket of groceries. But it does with a credit card. > [@jtgain](#): > > To me your complaint would be like, “I know that this grocery store is filthy,infested with maggots, and it is 41 degrees in here, but this guy is a small business owner trying to make a living. I shouldn’t call the board of health over these conditions because having to keep the place clean will cut into his profit margins” If you really, truly think that those things are the same as the credit card issue, i submit that it’s not even worth having this debate with you. > [@jtgain](#): > > Sure, your 89c purchase on your Visa will cut down, possibly eliminate any profit he makes off of the sale, but the overall fact that he accepts credit cards increases his total sales and total profit. And the condition of accepting credit cards means he has to accept cards for all purchases. I’m just not seeing the issue here. Well, i think i’ve made my position pretty clear. As i noted in my previous post, i don’t give a fuck about the conditions of his card agreement. Note the first person construction; i was talking about my own feelings on the subject. You are, in this great country, free to continue whining about stores that do this, and free to withhold your patronage from them. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2009, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409/40 "2009-11-28T18:44:05Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > The C/C machine in my store malfunctioned and of my next 10 customers, I’d say 8 of them didn’t have the cash for the transactions so had to go to an ATM and get it. In the case of small transactions using cards it is often because we are out of a stock of a bigger item that they were also looking for. Not that you came here looking for advice, but I’d really suggest getting a manual swiper (I call it a ker-chunker) for just this reason. My CC processor gives me the carbon forms for free so we keep it all on hand under the register. Then when the machine starts working again, I enter them all by hand. It sucks when the machine goes down on a Friday night and we don’t get a replacement until Monday afternoon. But I’d rather have to key in 300 credit card numbers then risk losing 250 sales. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-card-minimums/518409.md?page=3)