# Credit Cards and "consumer fraud" **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [July 2, 2015, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064 "2015-07-02T17:17:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/21 "2015-07-02T19:26:06Z")
Thanks. All newer info than I had in that dusty file. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/22 "2015-07-02T19:27:18Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I think Aldi’s refuses to take credit cards (or did at one time) because they don’t want their largely poor clientele to go into debt for groceries. That’s it, but I was thinking on a far wider scale. Apropos of nothing much, I once saw an elderly woman being led off by store security in the moderately upscale grocery store that was the most convenient one for me. As a long-time customer, I later asked the manager what the deal had been. “She was shoplifting two cans of tuna.” So I asked, “Did you bust her?” He looked at me a moment, and said quietly, “No, we sent her home with two bags of groceries.” That still hangs on my wall of Genuine Morality. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/23 "2015-07-02T19:44:42Z")
There’s a chain of stores in Ohio called [Marc’s](http://www.marcs.com/) and they “famously” never took credit cards, until the last 15 years or so when they started accepting Discover. They still only accept Discover. I wouldn’t be surprised if their reasoning, and the amusement park’s, is that they lost too much money on fraud that was totally not their fault and Discover is the only card that is friendly to the merchant. ---
**Author:** ![Mighty\_Mouse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mighty_mouse/32/7776_2.png) [@Mighty\_Mouse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mighty_Mouse)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/24 "2015-07-02T19:47:42Z")
When my wife and I first started dating, our first big getaway was to a resort in the Great Smokies. This was an Internet booking (1997) and when we got there the place was nothing like its description of the pictures on the website. The cabin was filthy and smelly, the swimming pool and tennis courts were at the local high school a few miles away. We disputed the deposit charged to her Discover Card, sent in photos we took, pictures from the resort website, and a detailed description of what we experienced. The charge was reversed pending investigation. The resort sent in a two line response, aimply saying everything we said was untrue. They did not address any specific claim. Discover reinstated the charge. I was flabbergasted. I SUSPECT the resort enforces it’s no refunds, no rainchecks policy to an extent that MC, Visa and Amex do not support. Either they’ve had so many charge acid they’ve been kicked out of they’ve decided that they are better off losing some business than losing all the money they’d collected when a power failure or thunderstorm closed the park. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/25 "2015-07-02T19:49:34Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > There’s a chain of stores in Ohio called [Marc’s](http://www.marcs.com/) and they “famously” never took credit cards, until the last 15 years or so when they started accepting Discover. They still only accept Discover. > > I wouldn’t be surprised if their reasoning, and the amusement park’s, is that they lost too much money on fraud that was totally not their fault and Discover is the only card that is friendly to the merchant. Discover typically has much lower fees and discount rates than MC/Visa. That’s the major reason you see it in isolation. So yes, “friendly to the merchant” is the answer. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![pkbites](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pkbites/32/204_2.png) [@pkbites](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pkbites)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/26 "2015-07-02T20:15:38Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I think Aldi’s refuses to take credit cards (or did at one time) because they don’t want their largely poor clientele to go into debt for groceries. _“Hey, we know you’re starving, but at least you are not in debt!”_ 😃 Woodmans doesn’t take credit cards either. But a grocery store is a different animal than a tourist attraction like an amusement park. I rarely take large amounts of cash on vacation and would be bummed if I couldn’t use my card. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/27 "2015-07-02T20:58:12Z")
[QUOTE=DrCube] I think Aldi’s refuses to take credit cards (or did at one time) because they don’t want their largely poor clientele to go into debt for groceries. [/QUOTE] I thought they just didn’t want to pay the fees, in order to keep prices low. That they don’t take credit cards is why I dont’ shopt at Aldi’s. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/28 "2015-07-02T22:44:56Z")
Is there any such thing as an EFT-POS (Electronic Funds Transfer - Point Of Sale) card in the US? They’re very common in NZ and Australia. Issued by your bank and not connected in any way to MC or Visa. ---
**Author:** ![Billdo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/billdo/32/315_2.png) [@Billdo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Billdo)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/29 "2015-07-02T22:45:52Z")
Another thing to consider, particularly with small family-owned businesses, is that credit card sales are all processed through the banking system and therefore very difficult not to report to the tax authorities. Cash collections, of course, are all supposed to be reported to the tax authorities. However, it is much easier for cash revenue to be under-reported than credit card revenue. Considering that most people prefer to use major credit cards for large charges like amusement park admission, and increasingly for small charges like food and trinkets, a potentially significant side effect of only taking one lesser-used credit card is that a much greater proportion of your receipts will be in cash. You can connect the dots. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/30 "2015-07-02T22:49:47Z")
> [@Kiwi\_Fruit](#): > > Is there any such thing as an EFT-POS (Electronic Funds Transfer - Point Of Sale) card in the US? They’re very common in NZ and Australia. Issued by your bank and not connected in any way to MC or Visa. There was an early era of bank-issued debit cards, that used their own independent networks to allow inter-bank and merchant transactions. For good or bad, they mostly got folded into MC/Visa-backed cards. It was all duplicate networks and systems and there were no market forces to support all the competition. > [@Billdo](#): > > You can connect the dots. What dots? There’s no dots here. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Alley\_Dweller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alley_dweller/32/430_2.png) [@Alley\_Dweller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alley_Dweller)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/31 "2015-07-02T22:53:55Z")
> [@Kiwi\_Fruit](#): > > Is there any such thing as an EFT-POS (Electronic Funds Transfer - Point Of Sale) card in the US? They’re very common in NZ and Australia. Issued by your bank and not connected in any way to MC or Visa. Yes, there are. They are usually referred to as ATM cards or ATM-only cards. Most of them can in fact be used to make “debit” POS purchases. Also, some government agencies use them to distribute government payments and benefits (although, increasingly, they are using the MC and Visa debit cards for this purpose). However, banks generally discourage people from getting them and will not even tell you that they are available unless you make a total pest of yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/32 "2015-07-02T22:59:15Z")
> [@Alley\_Dweller](#): > > Yes, there are. They are usually referred to as ATM cards or ATM-only cards. Most of them can in fact be used to make “debit” POS purchases. Also, some government agencies use them to distribute government payments and benefits (although, increasingly, they are using the MC and Visa debit cards for this purpose). The way the system is set up, it’s no big difference between an EZbank card and a MasterCard Debit Card - just one brand or the other. Without getting into anti-monopoly rants, it’s really a lot easier to let the big services handle the process than smaller, less-flexible secondary providers. At least, that’s how most banks and agencies that use “ATM cards” or “Benefit cards” see it, and I have trouble faulting their logic. ---
**Author:** ![drachillix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/48db29/32.png) [@drachillix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drachillix)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/33 "2015-07-02T23:11:22Z")
> [@DrCube](#): > > I think Aldi’s refuses to take credit cards (or did at one time) because they don’t want their largely poor clientele to go into debt for groceries. Grocery stores are often run on razor thin profit margins to compete. The 1.5-2% from a CC fee is a big deal. Debit transactions at $0.35 flat is a much better deal especially when you have people dropping $100 fairly regularly. ---
**Author:** ![DataX](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@DataX](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DataX)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/34 "2015-07-02T23:25:45Z")
Adding another place that doesn’t take credit cards - except their own: Peter Luger Steakhouse They do take debit cards, but it’s the only restaurant I know of that doesn’t take (normal) credit cards. Great steak - and the spinach is good too. ---
**Author:** ![Kiwi\_Fruit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiwi_fruit/32/12_2.png) [@Kiwi\_Fruit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiwi_Fruit)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/35 "2015-07-02T23:34:35Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > The way the system is set up, it’s no big difference between an EZbank card and a MasterCard Debit Card - just one brand or the other. Without getting into anti-monopoly rants, it’s really a lot easier to let the big services handle the process than smaller, less-flexible secondary providers. At least, that’s how most banks and agencies that use “ATM cards” or “Benefit cards” see it, and I have trouble faulting their logic. Fair enough I suppose. The banks in NZ created a co-operative organisation that handled transactions for all the issuing banks. It works for a small country like NZ or Australia but was probably too much for the US. I believe there are now a couple of companies that run competing networks, and I know that VISA/MC piggybacks on them. I suspect that banks are moving people to VISA debit cards rather than EFT-POS/ATM cards and they will quietly drop their own cards in favour of bank branded VISA/MC cards. That way a third party will handle all those sorts of transactions and any customer issues, while taking their cut as well. ---
**Author:** ![ethelbert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/958977/32.png) [@ethelbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ethelbert)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2015, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/36 "2015-07-02T23:41:34Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > What’s the ethical basis for not accepting credit cards? > > (Actually, I can think of one, but it’s pretty tangential to this discussion.) I think there is an argument that credit cards are a tax on the poor. Merchants who accept credit cards must charge the same price for cash or credit. Obviously, they price their goods based on the cost of the credit card, so everybody is paying more. For people who use credit cards, that’s fine. They have the convenience of using credit cards and usually get some of that money back in the form of rewards. Poor people do not use credit cards (they don’t generally qualify for them), but they pay for it nonetheless (if they shop at a place that accepts credit cards). It is true that merchants may be able to charge a lower price based on the increased volume of transactions that accepting credit cards will bring, but I think the argument still rings true. Personally, I think that the amount that the merchant pays to accept the card should be charged visibly on the receipt and that people who don’t use a card should not be charged for it. Imagine that sales tax was simply incorporated into the price of everything so that you never knew how much tax was being charged. I don’t think people would stand for it. ---
**Author:** ![Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/58956e/32.png) [@Emtar\_KronJonDerSohn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emtar_KronJonDerSohn)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/37 "2015-07-03T01:05:41Z")
> [@Cyros](#): > > I don’t know if it is still valid but [this cite](http://consumerist.com/2013/01/28/how-do-different-credit-debit-cards-stack-up-in-terms-of-consumer-protection/) from 2013 says that Discover is the only one to have a $0 liability on PIN based debit transactions and fraudulent ATM transactions. The park isn’t a consumer. If their concern is truly consumer fraud liability policy they’re more likely unhappy with merchant liability for fraudulent use. > [@pkbites](#): > > Though I do remember when Sams Club would only accept Discover. Don’t know if that’s still the case. I can’t see how an amusement park could survive doing it. They do (did?) that because the cards they issue are Discover. Costco only accepts (accepted?) American Express for the same reason. They can say “sorry you can’t use your more common credit card here, but we’ll be more than happy to sell you one that works! Just walk on over to member services and apply!” (I have memberships to both but don’t go often enough or pay close enough attention to know if they still have Discover and American Express respectively, but they still have the same restrictions against anything but “their” brand of card. They accept any major debit card though.) ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/38 "2015-07-03T01:29:34Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Yes. Missed this. Fraud protection means the consumer doesn’t pay; I’d bet that the more generous the card or issuer’s fraud protection, the harder they go after merchants who take fraudulent charges. Fail to have crossed an i or dotted a t, and you eat the charge. I keep trying to tell you guys, if you’re crossing your i’s and dotting your t’s, you’re doing it wrong. ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/39 "2015-07-03T01:51:56Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > [Here](http://www.lomb.com/general-info.php) is the website and the story checks out. Says just what you said. Strange. In this day and age I would think that would limit their business something fierce. > Looks like a neat place, though. 🙂 Place seems a bit odd. That’s the only place I’ve ever seen to charge more for a child’s ticket than an adult’s too. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2015, 4:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064/40 "2015-07-03T04:24:53Z")
> [@pkbites](#): > > Is that state or federal? Neither. He posted something incorrect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards-and-consumer-fraud/724064.md?page=3)