>> In any event, I’m asking why people refuse requests for id with credit cards
I will repeat: because they’re not supposed to have to show ID. I am not going to show ID just because the guy at the store would like to see it. The procedure is that they verify if the card is good by checking with visa/MC , not by asking me for ID. If Visa/MC gives the OK, then it’s ok, if they don’t, then it’s not.
>> You use Traveler’s Checks at the grocery store on a regular basis? WTF? Why don’t you use cash so there’s no paper trail at all?
With travelers checks I am protected in case of theft or loss. The grocery store is supposed to take it like cash so there is no need to check ID like with a check and it is faster. Of course, the jerk on duty insists on asking for ID so in the end it is a waste of time.
My point is that as a merchant you are not free to decide what you can do if you have a contract which tells you what you can do and what you cannot do. I know they do not abide by them but every time I have fought it I have won the point. Merchants should not be demanding something they are forbidden from demanding by contract, no matter how convenient or reasonable.
I get a credit card and travelers’ checks with certain conditions and I expect those conditions to be respected. If you do not understand that, I cannot explain it better.
Mainly for a similar reason that sailor gives, which is - they don’t have the right to ask for it. I’m not in the habit of doing whatever authority says to do when it has no right to ask me in the first place.
CompUSA, MicroCenter, and Radio Shack - the worst of all - will sometimes demand my telephone number and address - on a cash purchase! Why should anyone give them this? BTW - in my State, it is illegal to demand an unlisted number be recorded down for ID purposes during a purchase, yet the merchants try to anyways. Thus, they are breaking the law, and I for one don’t see why I should have to accept that.
In my State, it is illegal to record a Drivers license number down during a purchase or to compile a catalog of license numbers, even during a check purchase, yet merchants do this routinely. This is not just an invasion of privacy, it is illegal - just as much as shoplifting is. A local grocery store was actually busted last year here for having a huge Excel spreadsheet of license numbers, cross-indexed with credit card numbers, bank account numbers, and phone numbers, of their frequent customers. Why did they compile this list, when it was illegal to do so? Simple - one of the managers was doing telemarketing as a second job, and was using the information to try and “leverage” sales.
If you think that one should give ID even though it is not required, then go for it - the power is yours to do so. I really don’t like the argument of “if you’ve not broken the law, you have nothing to hide, right?” Do we really need another Great Debate about why that attitude does not really work in a free society?
There is no law in this country requiring that you carry identification with you. This is a free country, with all that entails. As an American citizen in a public place, I do NOT need to prove to anyone who I am. There is no national ID card or citizen ID number in this nation (although driver’s licenses and Social Security numbers are often, and with dubious legality, used for this purpose.) There may be times when it makes sense to be able to prove who I am, but the fact that I cannot is not in and of itself a crime.
And, as sailor says, if the agreement specifically states no identification (other than a signature) who are you, the merchant, to violate that mutual agreement we have all signed? It’s your store, you have the right to set the rules, but this is one rule you have already agreed to abide by. Why are you violating it?
What difference does it make? It’s all about privacy. Sure, I have nothing to hide, so I usually breakdown and whip out the ol’ driver’s license whenever asked, even though I know I don’t have to. It’s easier than arguing, even though I know I’m right. But what are you going to do when the police come knocking on your door and ask to look around? You’ve got nothing to hide, right? Then why not let them in? And if you don’t, then you must be hiding something…
Extreme? Sure. But that famous slippery slope has has to start inclining somwhere.
Here’s what it breaks down to: if you, the merchant, are asking me, the customer for ID (ostensibly for “my protection”), most people will be annoyed. Why? Well, when somebody asks for ID, they’re saying “We assume you’re trying to steal something. I put the burden on you to prove us wrong, you thieving bastards.”. Yes, yes, I know you aren’t really saying that, it’s just for our protection…but that’s how it comes off. Being asked for ID in almost any situation angers people. It also plays out like a little power struggle: the merchant is demanding that you submit to his or her will in order to purchase something from their establishment.
In addition to all this, the fact that you’re asking for ID when the customer knows you aren’t supposed to exascerbates the situation. The customer may not know that you ask everyone for an ID in this situation; all they know is, you’re breaking the rules and demanding ID, and it must be because you think they don’t seem trustworthy.
Cash is stolen far more often than credit cards, and you can’t dispute charges made with stolen cash. You have no recourse when cash is stolen; its fairly easy to dispute credit charges. Also, flippo claimed that he as a merchant foots the bill when somebody scams him; would not the credit card company’s insurer pay any fraud claims? As well, if you are taken in by fraud in a medium where you aren’t supposed to ask for ID (such as Traveller’s Cheques), surely AmEx cannot fault you for following the proscribed policy?
Oddly enough, this is allowed per the merchant agreement…in the IMHO thread that prompted my question, Motorgirl posted this link to a MasterCard FAQ that states:
“Keep in mind, however, that it is not a violation of the MasterCard rules for a merchant to offer customers a price discount for payment in cash, provided payment by MasterCard card is on at least as favorable terms as payment by any other means.”
This seems to indicate that as long as credit card payments are on the same par as payments by check (and any other forms of payment, although I can’t think of any others at the moment), giving a cash discount does not violate the terms of the credit card agreement.
Just because vendors are doing it doesn’t mean it’s allowed, as hardygrrl has pointed out. Merchants violate their agreements all of the time, not just on this issue, but on the ID issue as well. Unless you know someone in the credit card industry, it’s extremely likely that you wouldn’t even be aware that vendors aren’t allowed to set minimum limits, and as others have pointed out, it’s often just too much trouble to make a fuss.
Just a side note, on the subject of “to sign or not to sign the back of one’s credit card”, I was advised by my friend that the best thing to do is write “Ask for ID” in the signature space. That way, if the merchant checks the signature (which many don’t, in violation of their agreement), they will see the request to verify ID before accepting the card. This eliminates the issue of trying to choose between leaving the signature area blank (in which case a thief could sign your name on the card in their own handwriting, and therefore pass any signature verification if it came up) or signing your name and giving the thief a sample of your signature to practice forging.
I don’t mind showing my ID to prove that the card belongs to me…but based on some of the stories here, I’d be extremely uncomfortable if the clerk was writing it down somewhere rather than just visually comparing signatures and accepting the transaction. I can’t even begin to comprehend how some states are allowed to use one’s SSN as your driver’s license number. Sheesh.
As far as I can tell, the above merchant agreement quote follows the old trick of saying you allow something, while imposing conditions that make it all but impossible to actually do it. My reading of the requirement of “equally favorable terms” for MasterCard is that if you give a cash discount, you also have to give the same discount to MasterCard users. I suspect all the other cards have similar provisions. The practical effect is the elimination of the cash discount.
Aren’t travelers checks a different matter entirely? I didn’t think merchants were required to accept them under any circumstances. I’ve seen signs in some stores that specifically say that they don’t accept TC’s, but these same stores do accept cards.
There is no merchant agreement is there?
BTW; I took my granddaughter to Subway (her favorite :)) yesterday. They had a ‘cash only’ sign posted. Kinda refreshing, for some reason.
Peace,
mangeorge
Oh yeah! The other side of the, uh, coin.
So when I pay with cash, I’m forced to subsidize those who use cards? The merchant has to recover the extra cost of handling cards, and the only way to do it is by increasing prices.
Peace,
mangeorge
If you’d bothered to read my post, you’d see that the name on my DL and the name on my credit card are not the same, yet they are both in fact mine. The fact that I’ve shown them my ID doesn’t, in fact, prove a damn thing, so what’s the point? I’d get a card with my picture on it, but my bank doesn’t offer it and considering how impossible it apparently is to even get the right NAME on it I’m loath to even attempt it.
Interesting info about traveller’s checks. I didn’t know you weren’t supposed to ask for ID. The places I used to work treated them like regular checks, where you had to copy down a DL or passport #. Naughty naughty!
fippo, as a merchant you are free to accept credit cards or not but, if you do, you are obligated to follow the contract you have signed and the laws of the land, regardless of whether you think you have a good reason to do otherwise. You cannot pick and choose what obligations you will respect and which ones you won’t. Accepting credit cards provides you with certain benefits, mainly more clients, and you have to accept the other side of the coin.
voguevixen, travelers checks are, essentially, certified checks and are as good as cash (if not better in the sense that if lost can be recovered) and are supposed to be treated like cash.
I haven’t done it in a while but maybe next time someone asks me for ID I’ll raise a stink again just for the fun of it.
How about: Not everyone’s going to have ID. Most places that ask for ID with a credit card want a picture ID (one place specifically asked for driver’s license). The only picture ID I have is my driver’s license and, sometimes, when I’m not driving, I don’t have my driver’s license with me. Some people don’t drive at all, and don’t even have a driver’s license. And guess what, it’s not required that people carry picture IDs in general (or driver’s licenses in specific) or even have one.
In addition, there’s the whole thing about it being in violation of the contract that the store signed with the card issuer.
Ok, I didn’t see anything re merchants asking for id in the V/M agreement. According to the three different supervisors I asked, it’s left up to the merchant.
Jadis, the agreement does state the card MUST be signed. You can add “see id”. The problem there is most stores do not verify signatures. That’s why it stands out so much when you are asked to present id.
lucwarm, you can try it but most likely you will get charged. The store will be able to present a receipt with your signature on it, making it hard to dispute the purchase.
Anthracite, speaking from the retail side, they gather the info for marketing purposes. A lot of grocery stores have those cards for discounts and/or personal check approval. When those cards are used, whatever the customer purchases is monitored to watch sales trends.
mangeorge, with traveler’s checks you run the risk of accepting a counterfeit check or a stolen one. Many people sign the checks before using them, instead of front of the cashier as intended.
Most of the crime prevention types recomend that you never sign the back of your card, no matter what the card companys tell you. If you do, that gives the thief a way to practice your signiture, and when you try to dispute the fraudualnt charges later, the signiture looks like yours. I do not sign any of my cards. True, the thief can just sign the card himself, but it’ll be easier for you to prove later that it wasnt you.
Its better for the store or card company for you to sign, but it is not to your advantage.
I’m just speaking for my bank and what the supervisors there said.
It is in the Cardmember agreement that the card be signed. When you activate the account, you are agreeing to abide by it.
Now, in all honesty, we’re not going to know if you signed it or not. However, if you are stopped at the point of sale-when the merchant has to call in for a manual authoriztion-we do ask to verify the signature on the card with the signature on the id. If the card is not signed, we will not authorize the charge until it is.
People forget that the credit card is not truly theirs. It is the banks. We extend the credit and therefore have the right to make rules about how it can be used.
Example: I had a customer today who was irate because we had declined a purchase because it had flagged the security system. I reminded him that the cardmember agreement states we (the bank) have the right to monitor account activity to prevent fraud.
They certainly have that right. If I had a comany refuse to honor my card because I wont sign the back of it, I would just cancel that card, and use another. I have never had a merchant refuse to honor a card, or even call in for no sig. they will sometimes ask for ID because its not signed, to which I happily oblige. Thats what I want them to do afterall.
I’m gonna rush in here to say that I hate moron merchants who try to impose minimums, ask for IDs, or want my phone or DL #. And yes, I do make a stink. But here in NYC these practices seemed to have disappeared, so it’s been a while since I’ve had to raise the issue.
That said, here’s a cool hijack for you all:
Want to spot a counterfeit travelers’ check? (At least an AmEx one; I think this applies to other brands, but I can’t swear to it.)
Flip it over and you’ll see two mirror-image engraved portraits, one on the left, one on the right, both in ovals IIRC. Wet your finger. Rub it across both images. If it’s genuine one image will smear, the other will not.
