# Credit cards **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [October 24, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430 "2008-10-24T21:27:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Vision4BG](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b9bd4f/32.png) [@Vision4BG](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Vision4BG)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/1 "2008-10-24T21:27:57Z")
from [Is it safer not to sign the back of your credit cards? - The Straight Dope](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2819/is-it-safer-not-to-sign-the-back-of-your-credit-cards) “First, the signature on the back of the card isn’t intended as a security measure;” I’m not sure what makes you think it’s not a security measure. If it wasn’t, then why do they compare signatures? Also Gfactor mentions: “No doubt many will simply ask for ID, which is what you want them to do.” Asking for ID except for when a card is unsigned is restricted for most credit card companies. From Visa: “Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance. Therefore, merchants cannot refuse to complete a purchase transaction because a cardholder refuses to provide ID. Visa believes merchants should not ask for ID as part of their regular card acceptance procedures. Laws in several states also make it illegal for merchants to write a cardholder’s personal information, such as an address or phone number, on a sales receipt.” ---
**Author:** ![Rico](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rico/32/3582_2.png) [@Rico](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rico)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/2 "2008-10-24T22:54:22Z")
\ Since the column in question was by Staff Member **gfactor** , I’m moving this to Comments on Staff Reports. COCC \> COSR \ ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/3 "2008-10-24T23:51:34Z")
> [@Vision4BG](#): > > from [http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2819/is-it-safer-not-to-sign-the-back-of-your-credit-cards](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/2819/is-it-safer-not-to-sign-the-back-of-your-credit-cards) > > “First, the signature on the back of the card isn’t intended as a security measure;” > > I’m not sure what makes you think it’s not a security measure. If it wasn’t, then why do they compare signatures? This is a fair point. I’ll talk to Ed about an edit. > [@](#): > > Asking for ID except for when a card is unsigned is restricted for most credit card companies Right. But I’m talking about an unsigned card. In context: > [@](#): > > Of course, the fact that merchants are supposed to make you sign the back of the credit card doesn’t mean they will. No doubt many will simply ask for ID, which is what you want them to do. Of course, the Visa rules also make clear that seeing the ID in that case, without more, is unsatisfactory. [http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card\_acceptance\_guide.pdf](http://usa.visa.com/download/merchants/card_acceptance_guide.pdf) (pdf p. 31) But they do it. ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/4 "2008-10-25T06:51:01Z")
The back of my American Express does not have a space for a signature. It **does** have my picture, however. At every place I go to, except one, when I give them the Amex and they ask for ID, I tell them it’s on the back of the card … then they look, and say “OK,” and move forward with the process. They aren’t looking at the picture long enough to compare it to me. They aren’t looking from the picture, to my face, to the picture, for similarities and details. Also, I was wearing a hat in the picture (normally not allowed), my glasses are almost invisible, and I have a mustache and soul patch. Presently, I am bald of head and face. I’ve never been challenged beyond the barest of glances at the back of the card - enough to see that there is, in fact, a picture … but not who the picture is of. Never, that is, except for at Gamestop in Simi Valley. There’s one employee there who insists on seeing my ID when I use my Amex there. Even though I’m picking up a pre-ordered item that was ordered with this credit card online, and can only be picked up with this card. Even though she recognizes me from previous visits, and even called me by my first name on my last visit. Even though the depression of the credit card numbers goes through part of my picture on the back of the Amex so that you can visibly see that I haven’t taped a new picture over it. And yet, every time, 3 times in a row now, she’s insisted on seeing my ID in addition to the picture on the back. “They’ve found a way to fake even that,” she says. Of course, she gives the driver’s license I show her no deeper of an examination than other merchants give my Amex. So this is a slightly different situation than Visa (no sig, but there is a pic), but does still directly have to do with a merchant’s responsibilities and what they are **not** allowed to do. Not that I am against showing her the additional ID (I kind of like that at least some merchants make a token effort to prevent fraud when so few others do), but is my picture being on the Amex legally or contractually enough? If I’m able to fake my pic on an Amex, wouldn’t I also be able to fake my pic on the Driver’s License (which she did not ask me to remove from my wallet)? Maybe someday we’ll have a combo retinal + blood + fingerprint + DNA scanner that’s verified wifi+ unalterable magnetic strip + keypad entry + electronic signature + telepathic confirmation. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/5 "2008-10-25T18:54:06Z")
I wrote “CHECK ID” on the back of my credit cards and debit card, and merchants ask for it only half the time. ---
**Author:** ![SeanArenas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/df705f/32.png) [@SeanArenas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SeanArenas)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2008, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/6 "2008-10-25T20:20:32Z")
> [@MOIDALIZE](#): > > I wrote “CHECK ID” on the back of my credit cards and debit card, and merchants ask for it only half the time. Same here. But about 10% of merchants look at the back of the card, and about 20% of those merchants ask for ID at that point. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 7:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/7 "2008-10-26T07:19:03Z")
> [@Rico](#): > > \ > > Since the column in question was by Staff Member **gfactor** , I’m moving this to Comments on Staff Reports. > > COCC \> COSR > > \ I think a large part of the problem is that the link on the bottom of the page redirects to the wrong place. At least, it took me to Comments on Cecil’s Columns. ---
**Author:** ![tchansen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/43a26b/32.png) [@tchansen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tchansen)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/8 "2008-10-26T16:21:50Z")
> [@SeanArenas](#): > > Same here. But about 10% of merchants look at the back of the card, and about 20% of those merchants ask for ID at that point. As I have found out the last two times traveling in China, writing “PLEASE ASK FOR ID” means that I have to sign the credit card slip the same or else merchants won’t accept it here. They don’t speak English so they are matching my signature to the above phrase and since they don’t match they make me sign it again. Also, every vendor here in China has vigorously compared my signature to my identification and the signature on the card, sometimes calling in someone else to verify. Credit cards are a somewhat new phenomenon here so many seem unsure. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [October 26, 2008, 11:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/9 "2008-10-26T23:43:08Z")
> [@tchansen](#): > > As I have found out the last two times traveling in China, writing “PLEASE ASK FOR ID” means that I have to sign the credit card slip the same or else merchants won’t accept it here. They don’t speak English so they are matching my signature to the above phrase and since they don’t match they make me sign it again. > > Also, every vendor here in China has vigorously compared my signature to my identification and the signature on the card, sometimes calling in someone else to verify. Credit cards are a somewhat new phenomenon here so many seem unsure. Quite true, stunningly bad advice for anyone travelling outside of the US of A. Above all to areas where English might not be spoken. ---
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/10 "2008-10-27T03:02:48Z")
> [@Vision4BG](#): > > From Visa: > > “Although Visa rules do not preclude merchants from asking for cardholder ID, merchants cannot make an ID a condition of acceptance…” I’m very surprised at this. Why would Visa discourage the use of checking for ID? Is there some sort of legal issue? Wouldn’t Visa want merchants to use processes that help limit fraud? ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/11 "2008-10-27T21:05:28Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I’m very surprised at this. Why would Visa discourage the use of checking for ID? Is there some sort of legal issue? Wouldn’t Visa want merchants to use processes that help limit fraud? Not at the cost of violating the agreement with the customer, which is that the signature, and only the signature, is to be the test. Visa (or whoever the issuer is) is the middleman, and has to have contracts with both sides, and cannot possibly undertake the burden of having special terms for each customer, which would then also have to be negotiated with each vendor. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/12 "2008-10-27T23:19:12Z")
> [@John\_W.Kennedy](#): > > Not at the cost of violating the agreement with the customer… They don’t have to violate it; they can change it any time they want, and the agreement gives them that right. Usually, language such as “This agreement is subject to change and may be suspended, revoked or altered without prior notice…” is included and which you agreed to when you signed up. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2008, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/13 "2008-10-27T23:34:54Z")
> [@Q.E.D](#): > > They don’t have to violate it; they can change it any time they want, and the agreement gives them that right. Usually, language such as “This agreement is subject to change and may be suspended, revoked or altered without prior notice…” is included and which you agreed to when you signed up. In fact, I’ve just reviewed a few cardholder agreements (randomly selected from Google results). None of them include a promise that ID will not be required for purchases. Here are some examples: [http://www.nefcu.com/page.php?page=232](http://www.nefcu.com/page.php?page=232) > **[Request Rejected](https://www.firstcommandbank.com/security-center/cardholder-agreement.htm)** [http://www.wibank.com/chterms.html](http://www.wibank.com/chterms.html) [http://www.humana.com/providers/pdf/cardholderagreement.pdf](http://www.humana.com/providers/pdf/cardholderagreement.pdf) Several of them say something like: “You agree to sign the back of the card immediately upon receipt.” ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/14 "2008-10-28T00:05:28Z")
(hijack of sorts but on the subject of credit cards) Are US credit card holders issued with PINs? Chip and PIN is now the standard security measure in stores here. ---
**Author:** ![PaulParkhead](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/7ea924/32.png) [@PaulParkhead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PaulParkhead)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/15 "2008-10-28T01:46:53Z")
> [@An\_Gadai](#): > > (hijack of sorts but on the subject of credit cards) > > Are US credit card holders issued with PINs? Chip and PIN is now the standard security measure in stores here. PINs are used for debit cards, which is why you are often asked “Credit or debit?” when you present a card. If you say “debit”, you enter your PIN on a keypad. If you say “credit”, you sign as normal. You can use a debit card either way. If you sign, it’s very rare for the merchant to check your signature - in fact, often you just swipe the card yourself and never hand it over to the cashier. I never saw a card with a chip, nor a merchant who would have been equipped to deal with such a card. Some cards have photographs, though. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Gadai](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/d6d6ee/32.png) [@An\_Gadai](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Gadai)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/16 "2008-10-28T01:50:59Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > PINs are used for debit cards, which is why you are often asked “Credit or debit?” when you present a card. If you say “debit”, you enter your PIN on a keypad. If you say “credit”, you sign as normal. You can use a debit card either way. If you sign, it’s very rare for the merchant to check your signature - in fact, often you just swipe the card yourself and never hand it over to the cashier. > > I never saw a card with a chip, nor a merchant who would have been equipped to deal with such a card. Some cards have photographs, though. In the last few years here you have had to key in PIN regardless of debit or credit card. I don’t know if this has been implemented in many other countries. I think perhaps it has been in the UK but I’m not 100% certain. ---
**Author:** ![Gfactor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/9de053/32.png) [@Gfactor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gfactor)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 1:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/17 "2008-10-28T01:53:04Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > I never saw a card with a chip, nor a merchant who would have been equipped to deal with such a card. Some cards have photographs, though. > **[Smart card](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smart_card)** > > A smart card (SC), chip card, or integrated circuit card (ICC or IC card), is a card used to control access to a resource. It is typically a plastic credit card-sized card with an embedded integrated circuit (IC) chip. Many smart cards include a pattern of metal contacts to electrically connect to the internal chip. Others are contactless, and some are both. Smart cards can provide personal identification, authentication, data storage, and application processing. Applications include identi The... [http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F00E5D6103FF931A2575BC0A9679C8B63](http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9F00E5D6103FF931A2575BC0A9679C8B63) (smart cards introduced, but fairly useless as of 2001) [http://home3.americanexpress.com/corp/pc/2003/id\_keeper.asp](http://home3.americanexpress.com/corp/pc/2003/id_keeper.asp) ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 9:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/18 "2008-10-28T09:41:55Z")
> [@PaulParkhead](#): > > PINs are used for debit cards, which is why you are often asked “Credit or debit?” when you present a card. If you say “debit”, you enter your PIN on a keypad. If you say “credit”, you sign as normal. You can use a debit card either way. If you sign, it’s very rare for the merchant to check your signature - in fact, often you just swipe the card yourself and never hand it over to the cashier. > > I never saw a card with a chip, nor a merchant who would have been equipped to deal with such a card. Some cards have photographs, though. Must be an American thing as cards with chips are more or less European and other region standard now. ---
**Author:** ![MOIDALIZE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e274bd/32.png) [@MOIDALIZE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MOIDALIZE)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/19 "2008-10-28T14:02:03Z")
There are credit cards you can get with PINs for purposes of getting cash advances at ATMs. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430/20 "2008-10-28T17:48:58Z")
Good column, and very informative, **Gfactor**. Ignorance fought! But the links in it are dead. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/credit-cards/469430.md?page=2)