# Creepy Cop **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 27, 2009, 2:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135 "2009-06-27T02:35:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/141 "2009-07-02T18:51:34Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I’d also expect a moderator to be able to resist getting involved in snide little attempted character assassinations, but it seems you’re not that moderator. I’m not attempting to assassinate your character and I wasn’t trying to be snide. (I did wonder if the post would come across that way.) You said the cops treat everybody like potential criminals and I thought your background was relevant because you might’ve come across them that way or it might just explain how you feel about it. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/142 "2009-07-02T18:55:40Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Oh, does that mean I can call him a snivelling cockwasher, then? Subject to the rule _du jour_ on what insults may be applied to other posters, you certainly may do so when addressing him as a poster. And anyway, after rereading **Marley** ’s post, how was that character assassination? You _did_ use to be a burglar. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/143 "2009-07-02T18:59:34Z")
Thanks **Frank**. It’s also true that I wasn’t posting as a moderator and don’t moderate this part of the site. If I made that post in a cat photo thread, **ivan astikov** , you’d have a point, but it’s something you said about yourself and it’s related to the thread topic. Edit: Resuming the topic, **SmashTheState** , I think **Left Hand of Dorkness** has it right. I’ve known my share of socialists, including one of my brothers, and you’ve got the same attitude I see from them. People are taking potshots at you, but your hostility prevents you from convincing others and you end up preaching to the choir only. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/144 "2009-07-02T19:01:13Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I’m not attempting to assassinate your character and I wasn’t trying to be snide. (I did wonder if the post would come across that way.) You said the cops treat everybody like potential criminals and I thought your background was relevant because you might’ve come across them that way or it might just explain how you feel about it. Thanks for the explanation. You can ignore my half-hearted insult above, now. I see your point, but the fact is, I’ve now been keeping out of trouble for a year longer than my criminal career lasted, but living ‘on the fringes’ as I do, I’d still say my experience exceeds that of the average poster. And it’s not just me they have had this attitude with; I’ve heard it from the white sheep of our family, my non-criminal friends and associates, complete strangers, and see it every week on COPS and the like. I admit **I** may just be looking at them through crime-tinted glasses, but when honest citizens are treated like dirt-bags until the police have ascertained otherwise, I begin to doubt if it is just me. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/145 "2009-07-02T19:06:49Z")
Oh, and decent cops shouldn’t be getting offended by my generalisations; they should be looking around at their colleagues and rooting out the fuckers giving them such a bad name. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/146 "2009-07-02T21:13:40Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > Oh, and decent cops shouldn’t be getting offended by my generalisations; they should be looking around at their colleagues and rooting out the fuckers giving them such a bad name. As should those ghetto Negros that give their race a bad name, what with their crime-ridden lives and all. Right? Nonsense. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/147 "2009-07-02T21:47:47Z")
> [@Rand\_Rover](#): > > So your theory is that if I joined an anarchist message board with the username UpholdTheState, I’d be welcomed with open arms? Just save **SmoochTheState** for me. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/148 "2009-07-02T21:53:08Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > I admit **I** may just be looking at them through crime-tinted glasses, but when honest citizens are treated like dirt-bags until the police have ascertained otherwise, I begin to doubt if it is just me. Since when are vandals, such as SmashTheState, honest citizens? Last I heard, vandalism was an offense. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/149 "2009-07-02T22:21:05Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > ESADIAF. Okay, you want honest questions, here’s one. What the heck is this? I think I have part of it figured out, but I’m really not sure about the last part. ---
**Author:** ![thirdwarning](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecccb3/32.png) [@thirdwarning](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdwarning)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/150 "2009-07-02T22:24:52Z")
And the next honest question (or two): If the panhandlers are part of the union, do they pay dues? And maybe this would be better in a separate thread. Want to start one? ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/151 "2009-07-02T22:42:39Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Since when are vandals, such as SmashTheState, honest citizens? Last I heard, vandalism was an offense. Under Kanadian law, there are several exceptions where breaking the law is actually quite legal. One example is necessity. If one can prove to the court that one broke the law out of necessity to protect someone else’s life or liberty, then one can be found not guilty; for example, even though breaking down someone’s door when their house is on fire is break and enter, one can use the “necessity” defence in court. Likewise, there is what’s called “colour of right.” Colour of right is quite popular with activists, for obvious reasons. What it means is that even though the Charter does not specifically state that such an activity is protected, it’s clear from the context and intention that it is intended to. So, for example, in my case, the Ontario Charter makes discrimination on the basis of source of income _for housing_ an offence. The pedestrian underpass was used as shelter and protection from the elements by homeless people. We have a large sheaf of supporting affidavits from social work professionals that, while the bridge is not ideal, in the absence of resources for housing these people, it is necessary for their protection in the vicious winters we have in Ottawa. We can therefore argue colour of right on two grounds: (1) that fencing off the area is a violation of the Ontario charter, since it discriminates specifically against people whose income is from social assistance or disability payments; and (2) that it is endangering people’s lives to deliberately deny them shelter from the cold and snow and rain, thereby violating their Kanadian Charter right to safety and security of the person. In order to make a “necessity” argument in court, one must first show that everything legal was done first before resorting to illegal means. As I have indicated repeatedly, we filed a lawsuit, did dozens and dozens of radio and television interviews, talking to city council, argued with police, took petitions, and in fact warned the city openly through the media that we would be forced into taking illegal action in order to save people’s lives. Probably no one of these justifications is a “magic bullet,” but taken together the Crown probably felt that there was enough to make for a long and complicated trial in which we had everything to gain and nothing to lose. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/152 "2009-07-02T22:47:34Z")
> [@thirdwarning](#): > > If the panhandlers are part of the union, do they pay dues? We do indeed. The IWW is a real (and much storied) union, 105 years old this year. The Wobblies have a tradition of organizing the unorganized; during the Great Depression, the Wobs organized the men in work camps to fight for better conditions and, at one time, nearly every hobo riding the rails held a Wobbly red card. If you tried to hop a train and didn’t have your red card, the hobos would pitch you right back off. Fortunately, because the IWW is a member-run union with only a single paid worker, dues are extremely reasonable; sub-minimum dues for people experiencing financial hardship (such as panhandlers) are $5 a month. > [@thirdwarning](#): > > And maybe this would be better in a separate thread. Want to start one? I don’t even want to imagine the ridicule and mocking if I started a thread specifically for discussion of the OPU. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/153 "2009-07-02T23:06:37Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Under Kanadian law, there are several exceptions where breaking the law is actually quite legal. One example is necessity. Ah yes–the EF!ers used this justification too. It has the major advantage of dovetailing nicely with what activists wish were true. Have you ever stopped to review activist court cases to find out how often it succeeds as a defense? I have. The answer is: pretty fucking close to never. I’m all for a decentralized power structure in theory. My growing up didn’t consist of deciding authoritarianism was good. It consisted of realizing that wishes ain’t horses. I think you’d benefit from growing up, yourself. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/154 "2009-07-02T23:14:13Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Have you ever stopped to review activist court cases to find out how often it succeeds as a defense? > > I have. > > The answer is: pretty fucking close to never. I’m not stupid. However, to quote the IRA, “We only have to get lucky once; they have to get lucky every time.” > [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m all for a decentralized power structure in theory. My growing up didn’t consist of deciding authoritarianism was good. It consisted of realizing that wishes ain’t horses. I think you’d benefit from growing up, yourself. If “growing up” means watching people freeze to death because a bunch of yuppies would prefer not to see poor people and then just shrugging my shoulders, then I hope I remain a child forever. You can keep your “maturity.” ---
**Author:** ![The\_Raven\_1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7993a0/32.png) [@The\_Raven\_1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Raven_1)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2009, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/155 "2009-07-02T23:18:06Z")
> [@thirdwarning](#): > > Okay, you want honest questions, here’s one. What the heck is this? I think I have part of it figured out, but I’m really not sure about the last part. ESADIAF? I’m gonna guess, “eat shit and die in a fire”… BTW, isn’t that last part frowned upon by THE MAN a.k.a TPTB a.k.a the Trans-global ModCon? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ashman165](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e8cbc/32.png) [@ashman165](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ashman165)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/156 "2009-07-03T00:13:33Z")
> [@ivan\_astikov](#): > > But, for the vast majority of cops, it is alright to treat the general public as potential criminals, unless they absolutely know different? > > And if you try to tell me being a cop doesn’t jade your worldview, I’m going to call “Bullshit!”. Call what you like, but you certainly don’t get to decide how I view the world. That decision is entirely my own. Besides, assuming that I am even jaded against the world, there’s no reason to automatically assume it’s because I was a police officer. I could well have been jaded before then. The vast majority of cops I know do not view each member of the public as a criminal. Indeed, they’re usually busy dealing with actual criminals, the status of the average person doesn’t register because said people aren’t even a blip on the RaDAR. Usually, one need do something to attract the attention of the police; they aren’t that bored to go out to find _you_ for no reason and just wait for you to break some law. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/157 "2009-07-03T00:40:22Z")
> [@apollonia](#): > > The underpass in question is a block from the seat of national government and in a heavily-trafficked area. The underpass has not been totally blocked off, but the portion of it where the homeless used to shelter has been fenced off with wrought iron fencing. The underpass area has for some time been the site of aggressive panhandling and open drug and alcohol use, and people’s reluctance to use it because they do not choose to be harassed for money in a dark underground pass with no police presence has forced them to walk aboveground and negotiate a busy intersection. The fence is a small part of a program to create an area that is more accessible to all the public, including the non-homeless public, by increasing lighting and police presence. Especially considering that this is in a heavily-touristed area directly downtown, the whole thing is pretty, you know, small potatoes. I can’t help but notice that someone on the SDMB has an entirely different perspective on the place in question, and Mr Smasher of States has glossed over this post with nary a refutation. ---
**Author:** ![SmashTheState](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@SmashTheState](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmashTheState)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/158 "2009-07-03T00:56:22Z")
> [@FoieGrasIsEvil](#): > > I can’t help but notice that someone on the SDMB has an entirely different perspective on the place in question, and Mr Smasher of States has glossed over this post with nary a refutation. Why bother? apollonia is promulgating the same bullshit and class prejudice that I’ve been hearing for hears from the rest of the civil servants and suburban soccer moms. Sorry if the sight of poor people makes you frightened, but that’s your problem, not ours. If you want to exist without seeing poor people, go live in Disneyworld. We make no apologies for our existence. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/159 "2009-07-03T01:11:56Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > I’m not stupid. However, to quote the IRA, “We only have to get lucky once; they have to get lucky every time.” And yet you’ve not noticed that you haven’t yet gotten lucky once, nor has anyone in the long history of this sort of smug self-involved activism. Luck has nothing to do with it. It’s not like you’re going to one day find the judge who thinks, “You know what? That ridiculous flimsy excuse for a legal argument is TEH AWESEOM! Case dismissed, and smash the state!” That judge doesn’t exist. You will fail every single time EVER that you try this strategy. > [@](#): > > If “growing up” means watching people freeze to death because a bunch of yuppies would prefer not to see poor people and then just shrugging my shoulders, then I hope I remain a child forever. You can keep your “maturity.” You apparently think that not getting charged for failing to cut the lock on an underpass constitutes a success in the effort to keep people from freezing to death. Growing up means setting aside such illusions, and figuring out things to do that actually make the world a better place. Which is what I’ve done: I’ve found something I can do with my life that’s much less glamorous than getting arrested for a failed Quixotic “direct action”, but that actually makes lives better. I think it’s too late for you; you’ll probably die smug. But maybe some of the teenagers your ilk influences will wise up. ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [July 3, 2009, 1:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135/160 "2009-07-03T01:15:56Z")
> [@SmashTheState](#): > > Why bother? apollonia is promulgating the same bullshit and class prejudice that I’ve been hearing for hears from the rest of the civil servants and suburban soccer moms. Sorry if the sight of poor people makes you frightened, but that’s your problem, not ours. If you want to exist without seeing poor people, go live in Disneyworld. We make no apologies for our existence. If it’s a heavily travelled underpass, not well lit, has homeless people aggressively panhandling and openly using drugs, isn’t that kind of a recipe for a more serious crime to occur? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-cop/501135.md?page=9)