# Creepy, offensive, or just plain unsettling subtexts in lighthearted sitcoms. **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [March 2, 2007, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320 "2007-03-02T17:40:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![H3Knuckles](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/ba8739/32.png) [@H3Knuckles](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/H3Knuckles)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 2:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/121 "2007-03-04T02:40:02Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Slightly breaking the rules of the OP, but I think it could fit. How about the attempted rape prevalent in a lot of old cartoons, and even current children’s entertainment? For example, Pete in old Mickey mouse cartoons, always kidnapping Minnie for Mickey to save. This isn’t even something you have to force, or have a twisted mind for - it’s pretty clear that his intentions were to rape Minnie (or why else is he kidnapping her?). The same goes for Bowser and Princess Toadstool (I mean…sigh…Peach). [/QUOTE] I can’t speak to the Mickey Mouse thing, but along similar lines you have Popeye. But Bluto wasn’t about to rape Olive Oil, he sincerely thought they belonged together, and was always trying to use his muscle to get her away from Popeye. Now, granted, one could say that a person like that is either going to wind up an abuser, a rapist, or both, but at the end of the day Bluto was just a bully, not some horrible person. Pete might have been intended in a similar manner. More recent (c. 1985-1995) kids’ shows have played with the idea by portraying the “villain” as a hopeless romantic who kidnaps the girl, and then tries to woo her in stereotypical old-fashioned ways once he has her attention. As for Bowser, I always thought it was a strictly political thing. He’s trying to take over the Mushroom kingdom. I mean, he has 8 kids (the koopalings, and the Bowser Jr. that’s appeared concurrent with him in games like Mario Sunshine) with no wife. Obviously Bowser has no interest in a romantic marriage, and seems to be quite the ladies’ man amongst his own kind. I don’t think he has any interest in Peach Toadstool that way. And for the record, as a kid I thought he was holding her ransom for the Mushroom Kingdom’s surrender. ---
**Author:** ![Justin\_Bailey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/justin_bailey/32/8792_2.png) [@Justin\_Bailey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Justin_Bailey)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/122 "2007-03-04T02:52:22Z")
[QUOTE=H3Knuckles] And for the record, as a kid I thought he was holding her ransom for the Mushroom Kingdom’s surrender. [/QUOTE] As did I. And it’s implied in both 3 and World that after kidnapping the Princess, Bowser and his kids took over everything. It was definitely a political play. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/123 "2007-03-04T03:07:52Z")
[QUOTE=Fionn] The boss disappearing at least made sense, since Roseanne quit working at the factory. [/QUOTE] Booker later showed up at a Halloween party. ---
**Author:** ![Kat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b19c9b/32.png) [@Kat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kat)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 3:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/124 "2007-03-04T03:14:24Z")
[QUOTE=OBJECTION!!] Is there a name for when characters are suddenly played by a different actor? The instance I’m referring to is when they changed actors for Vivian in _Fresh Prince_. [/QUOTE] [Darrin Syndrome](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chuck_Cunningham_Syndrome#Examples_of_shows_with_.22same_character.2C_different_actor.22). ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/125 "2007-03-04T03:42:37Z")
Or the two Chrises on _The Partridge Family_. ---
**Author:** ![Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/c4cdca/32.png) [@Quiddity\_Glomfuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quiddity_Glomfuster)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/126 "2007-03-04T04:10:53Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] What happened at the end? What did I miss? -FrL- [/QUOTE] They broke up. But a read of the episode guide reminds me they did reunite after all. That was the thing about that show, though; it was much more realistic than other shows with married couples, IMHO. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/127 "2007-03-04T04:49:24Z")
[QUOTE=fruitbat] For me I felt this way about **Cheers**. I loved Cheers, but Norm was a terribly pathetic figure. Even as a teenager I couldn’t help but think that if the bar closed he would probably kill himself. The other characters weren’t his friends, he was just the jovial fixture at the end of the bar. He hated his job, didn’t appear to have family, and avoided his wife. I felt like I was watching a PSA on alcoholism and depression. [/QUOTE] It was Cliff that I always felt bad for. Everyone hated him, including his own mom. It was a rare day when he wasn’t shat upon by everyone in the cast. Norm? Hell, EVERYBODY liked Norm. They even shouted out his name whenever he entered. ---
**Author:** ![Ranchoth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ranchoth/32/1066_2.png) [@Ranchoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ranchoth)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 5:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/128 "2007-03-04T05:40:01Z")
[QUOTE=betenoir] Well hell, what about Pepe Le Pew. A whole series of cartoons about rape. Ha ha ha. Even when I was a kid I got the subtext and it creeped me out. [/QUOTE] Eh, with Pepe, I always figured that, much like the Coyote, he had been thwarted in reaching his “goal” at every occasion for so long that he no longer even knew what he was supposed to do if he’d succeeded. …Of course, from all the FBI psychological studies I’ve read, I think that means he’d then turn to murdering his victims to keep them from reporting him. But _that_ would give him some sort of bizarre satisfaction, and he’d feel the urge to kill again…and again… Well, I guess we know where Speedy Gonzales disappeared to, now. _"Mon Chou_ puts ze lotion on it’s skin, or else it gets _le hose_ again!" :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/129 "2007-03-04T05:46:45Z")
[QUOTE=H3Knuckles] I can’t speak to the Mickey Mouse thing, but along similar lines you have Popeye. But Bluto wasn’t about to rape Olive Oil, he sincerely thought they belonged together, and was always trying to use his muscle to get her away from Popeye. Now, granted, one could say that a person like that is either going to wind up an abuser, a rapist, or both, but at the end of the day Bluto was just a bully, not some horrible person. Pete might have been intended in a similar manner. More recent (c. 1985-1995) kids’ shows have played with the idea by portraying the “villain” as a hopeless romantic who kidnaps the girl, and then tries to woo her in stereotypical old-fashioned ways once he has her attention. [/QUOTE] Starting with Goof Troop, Pete’s not even a villain, he’s a family man whose worst crime is being a sleazy car salesman. I think in the Goofy Movies, he’s an employee at a K-Mart type place along with Goofy. He’s still a jerk, but he seems to mean well. ---
**Author:** ![Cyberhwk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7993a0/32.png) [@Cyberhwk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cyberhwk)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 6:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/130 "2007-03-04T06:41:11Z")
[QUOTE=Autumn Almanac] A lot of newer TV shows aimed at kids have similar messages, it seems to me. It’s one thing to show the world from a kid’s point of view or satirize the foibles of adults, but when adults are portrayed as ignorant jerks whose authority over kids is always illegitimate, I have to wonder how much it contributes to the bratty, entitled attitudes of so many kids. [/QUOTE] In how many kids shows are the parents even PRESENT anymore? They’ll sit there and watch and for at least a half hour some 13 year old girl is going to be running around their town, shopping (who knows where she GETS the money for her 6 bags of shit), seeing friends, going out to movies, going out to a burger joint with friends, with nary an authority figure in the picture. It’s not just the lack of parental involvement, it’s the utter lack of responsibility that the main characters seem to have. Never see them in school, never see them doing homework, never see them doing chores, they’re just hanging out and having fun 24/7. ---
**Author:** ![Rodgers01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@Rodgers01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rodgers01)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/131 "2007-03-04T07:57:18Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] Another one– **The Simpsons**. One of the greatest shows in the universe, but I still cringe every time Homer chokes Bart. On the commentary Matt Groening insists, ‘‘We have to make it spontaneous and not premeditated or else it’s just too disturbing.’’ I hate to break it to him, but it’s pretty disturbing to see a man strangle a small child for an extended period of time regardless of whether he did it in a spontaneous fit of rage or with premeditated malice. And don’t even get me started on Itchy and Scratchy. I can’t even _watch_ that shit. [/QUOTE] I can understand the strangling thing, since Bart and Homer are supposed to be “real” people on the show. But what’s so creepy or unsettling about the violence in Itchy and Scratchy? They’re so over the top and ludicrous parodies of cartoon violence that I can’t see anything creepy about it at all. (Which, incidentally, I think explains the Bart strangling in the early episodes: it was a parody of cartoon violence, but the more we got to know the characters, the less it played like a parody and the more unsettling it became. Unless we get to know Itchy and Scratchy on a human level, I don’t think the same will happen to them.) ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 9:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/132 "2007-03-04T09:07:43Z")
[QUOTE=alphaboi867] I find it creepy that Darrin effectively hated everything about his wife’s culture and heritage and insisted she reject it. And Sam went along with it! Even when her witchcraft saved the day! Make Samantha Jewish or black instead of a witch and the show would be incredibely racist even by 60s standards. [/QUOTE] To me it’s not racist, but sexist. Here’s a woman who can literally do _anything_, and she’s married to a guy who insists that she not use any of her special abilities. He also wants her to minimize contact with her relatives. For some reason she tries to accommodate him instead of divorcing the schmuck. Imagine a show about a woman who has several degrees in various fields: physics, literature, languages, economics, etc. Most of her relatives are wealthy entrepreneurs. She is married to an insurance salesman who insists that she not have her own career or pursue her own interests. The guy gets annoyed when his wife’s relatives come over and encourage her to have her own life. To me, that’s what _Bewitched_ is like. _I Dream of Jeanie_ is also pretty creepy. I disagree, though, with all the people who find _Seinfeld_ and _Everybody Loves Raymond_ creepy or offensive because the main characters are selfish jerks. Neither of these shows asks the audience to sympathize with the selfishness of these characters - they ask the audience to laugh at it. Laughter is often motivated by hostility - in this case, to some of the most self-absorbed people imaginable. It would be creepy and offensive if the humor in these shows were directed at the victims, but I don’t think that’s the case here. ---
**Author:** ![Jeff\_Lichtman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jeff_lichtman/32/1531_2.png) [@Jeff\_Lichtman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jeff_Lichtman)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/133 "2007-03-04T09:52:59Z")
[QUOTE=olivesmarch4th] **Married with Children** always creeped me right out. . . Another one– **The Simpsons**. One of the greatest shows in the universe, but I still cringe every time Homer chokes Bart. . . And don’t even get me started on Itchy and Scratchy. . . [/QUOTE] _Married with Children_ was a parody of the old shows like _Father Knows Best_ in which family life was shown as being idyllic to the point of absurdity. _MWC_ is about the opposite type of world - a world in which family members are ridiculously horrid to each other. My main problem with _MWC_ is that it wasn’t very creative - most of it was just recycled insult comedy. As for Homer choking Bart - _The Simpsons_ is a very cartoonish cartoon, so the choking doesn’t bother me so much. People in it don’t look or act like anyone in real life. There’s a lot of unrealistic violence, like people being struck by lightning and falling down mountains, and in most cases there is no permanent damage. I would find it disturbing if, for example, in _King of the Hill_ Hank choked Bobby. _KOTH_ is much less cartoonish - the characters look and act more like real people than do the characters in _The Simpsons_. _Itchy and Scratchy_ is a commentary on both the violence and lack of imagination of some of the old-time cartoons. _Itchy and Scratchy_ is (are?) about nothing except Itchy dismembering Scratchy in various ways. Most of the cartoons aren’t funny in and of themselves. The joke is in the slavish following the cartoons have in _The Simpsons_ universe - the fact that even someone as smart as Lisa finds _Itchy and Scratchy_ hilarious though the cartoons are formulaic and disgusting. ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/134 "2007-03-04T11:11:29Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The whole premise was that Pepe was oblivious – oblivious to the distinction between skunk and cat, oblivious to his affections being unrequited, and oblivious to his own smell. [/QUOTE] Well yeah but I’d say being oblivious, not recognizing the people…err..cats around you to the point that you don’t know what sex/species they are and fail to notice that they have no interest in you and only your own interest in them is pretty much the definition of creep. Imagine a human like that. But I don’t want to get anymore carried away. Don’t want to burst anything. 🙂 But it did creep me out as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/135 "2007-03-04T17:11:11Z")
[QUOTE=Jeff Lichtman] To me it’s not racist, but sexist. Here’s a woman who can literally do _anything_, and she’s married to a guy who insists that she not use any of her special abilities. He also wants her to minimize contact with her relatives. For some reason she tries to accommodate him instead of divorcing the schmuck. [/QUOTE] Which leads us to only one possibility: _Darrin is hung like a fire engine_ :eek: ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/136 "2007-03-04T18:11:33Z")
[QUOTE=H3Knuckles] I can’t speak to the Mickey Mouse thing, but along similar lines you have Popeye. But Bluto wasn’t about to rape Olive Oil, he sincerely thought they belonged together, and was always trying to use his muscle to get her away from Popeye. Now, granted, one could say that a person like that is either going to wind up an abuser, a rapist, or both, but at the end of the day Bluto was just a bully, not some horrible person. Pete might have been intended in a similar manner. More recent (c. 1985-1995) kids’ shows have played with the idea by portraying the “villain” as a hopeless romantic who kidnaps the girl, and then tries to woo her in stereotypical old-fashioned ways once he has her attention. [/QUOTE] Well that’s why I personally didn’t mention Popeye. Olive waffled between Bluto and Popeye, proving she was willing to be wooed by either of them. But Pete and villains like him physically grabbed the girls as they kicked and screamed to get out of their clutches. Upon reaching their lairs, the women were bound as the villains tried to force their kisses upon them (and, naturally, more, if the hero doesn’t come in time). That’s rape. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/137 "2007-03-04T18:27:13Z")
[QUOTE=pizzabrat] Well that’s why I personally didn’t mention Popeye. Olive waffled between Bluto and Popeye, proving she was willing to be wooed by either of them. But Pete and villains like him physically grabbed the girls as they kicked and screamed to get out of their clutches. Upon reaching their lairs, the women were bound as the villains tried to force their kisses upon them (and, naturally, more, if the hero doesn’t come in time). That’s rape. [/QUOTE] From my irregular “Who Do We Blame?” office newsletter:Monday, June 21, 2004 Character: Olive Oyl First Appearance: Betty Boop’s Bamboo Isle (1932) Culpable Party: Fleischer Studios Identifying Characteristic: Whiny scream for help, Princess Leia hairstyle with art-girl combat boots. Why Do We Blame Her?: Flat-chested, pencil-wristed instigator plays a hideously unattractive Helen to Bluto’s Paris, causing the intransigent Popeye to continually come to her defense. Irritating sidekick and possible illegitimate child Sweetpea frequently in tow, increasing the drain on Popeye’s already stretched finances, what between his tattoo fetish and spinach (wink-wink) addiction.And on the topic of Pepe Le Peu:Wednsday, June 23, 2004 Character: Pepe Le Peu First Appearance: Merry Melodies (date unknown) Culpable Party: Warner Bros. Identifying Characteristic: Black fur with dual white dorsal stripe, debilitating musk, affinity for felines. Why Do We Blame Him?: Introduced millions of children to the joys of interspecies stalking and bestiality.Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Katriona](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/katriona/32/113_2.png) [@Katriona](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katriona)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/138 "2007-03-04T22:09:12Z")
[QUOTE=control-z] And the continual mistreatment and neglect of Meg. Of course many parts of that show are over-the-top on purpose. [/QUOTE] I always wondered if that was a nod to the treatment of “fat” Carol Seaver, tothe point that the actress developed an eating disorder, on that other 80’s sitcom which name is escaping me. Kirk Cameron was the older brother. “Family Guy” makes a lot of 80’s references. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/139 "2007-03-04T22:25:34Z")
[QUOTE=Katriona] I always wondered if that was a nod to the treatment of “fat” Carol Seaver, tothe point that the actress developed an eating disorder, on that other 80’s sitcom which name is escaping me. Kirk Cameron was the older brother. “Family Guy” makes a lot of 80’s references. [/QUOTE] I think the name of the show was “Growing Pains”, and for a while after Titanic came out, Disney was doing all sorts of promos advertising how Leonardo Dicaprio was on that show (for all of like, one season, I seem to recall that the commercials came off as slightly ironic) ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320/140 "2007-03-04T23:24:36Z")
[QUOTE=Jeff Lichtman] _Itchy and Scratchy_ is (are?) about nothing except Itchy dismembering Scratchy in various ways. Most of the cartoons aren’t funny in and of themselves. [/QUOTE] That may have been true at the very beginning, but many I&S cartoons are really hilarious in their inventiveness and surprise twists. Perhaps my favorite is after Scratchy gets sucked under at the top of the escalator, ripping his fur off. Itchy sells the fur to a fur shop, a wealthy woman buys it, scratchy takes it back from her, drapes it around himself… and gets attacked by anti-fur protestors outside the mall. Comedic brilliance. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-offensive-or-just-plain-unsettling-subtexts-in-lighthearted-sitcoms/394320.md?page=8)