# Creepy sexual harasser on a US government salary **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228 "2009-04-07T04:53:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/21 "2009-04-07T14:55:21Z")
In some places the policy is that you report any situations that you are aware of, even if you weren’t directly involved. If you had witnessed the incident I’d advise you to go ahead and report it. Based solely on her statements, I wouldn’t do anything except be more observant. But if you do see something and don’t say anything, you may be setting yourself up for a written warning yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/22 "2009-04-07T15:02:51Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > Respectfully, there really is a lot of pressure on girls and young women (hell, even middle aged women) to be nice and avoid a scene or potentially upsetting a man. I do understand that it’s hard to fathom, becuase few men would react as many, many women have been trained all their lives to. Just as it’s not ok for boys to cry, it’s not ok for girls to assertively get what they need. Especially for a certain subset of pretty girl, there is just no way she’d talk to an offensive person the way you would above. Just as a young man would not cry in public or even in front of his wife. I don’t know how it is with all girls and young women - just how we have raised our daughters, and what I have experienced in terms of their schoolmates and my co-workers. My personal experience has been that the vast majority of women I encounter have little hesitation taking whatever steps they feel necessary to achieve the results they desire. I have often found it frustrating when women seem unwilling to engage in open discussion, but then pursue their agenda behind closed doors. I readily acknowledge, however, that my family, social, and work associations have not generally included a terribly wide socio-economic range. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/23 "2009-04-07T15:09:36Z")
Yep, it’s beyond me, too. I must admit, however, that I did go through a phase where I was not as assertive as I am now. I had to learn that creeps are creeps and you must absolutely shut them down or they will take advantage of any insecurity. Some women need to be taught that there’s a whole world available to them that falls between the poles of bitch and doormat. They don’t have to choose to be one or the other, and they can still be their ideal of woman and have boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![teela\_brown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d9b06d/32.png) [@teela\_brown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/teela_brown)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/24 "2009-04-07T17:40:53Z")
I once overheard and reported some behavior like this. We used to have a file clerk who was from the Ivory Coast of Africa. She was almost model-pretty. We also have an older, very well-to-do attorney whose small law firm merged with ours. He was used to being the boss and saying anything he wanted to anyone. She, however, was raised in Africa and in France, American culture was new to her, and she was quite unsure of how to deal with many social situations at work. He’d always stop by her desk to chat and leer. Yes, he did leer - I think if you look in the dictionary under “leer” you’d see a photo of him pulling this lecherous face. He noticed she had some vacation photos of her visit home to the Ivory Coast and asked to see them, but “only if they have a lot of sexy pictures of you”. He looked through them and commented in lascivious detail on just how sexy she was in each photo. His remarks went right over her head because of the cultural disconnect and her timidity. However, I had heard enough, because this guy in the past was always making unacceptable remarks to women in the office, especially black women, to whom he always said something sexual. I told HR, and I think they spoke to him because of some hint he dropped when walking past my desk soon after. He still holds onto his habit of saying something sexual or racist to various underlings in the office, however, and he has been in trouble over this more than once. God, this guy’s a creep. I wish he’d retire. Most of his working day here is going around looking for someone’s ear to bend. Anyway, that’s my story of overhearing someone being harassed and speaking up about it. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/25 "2009-04-07T18:10:35Z")
_Raises hand_ I’m all too used to that, plus my pathetic chain of responses. First there’s the, ‘Hmm, this guy’s a little close. But we are bunched up, or maybe I’m just too anti-social and need too much personal space.’ Then, ‘Did he just touch me? I think so. It was probably an accident.’ Then, ‘Okay, there it is again. Can I glance over to see if it could be an accident, without making him think I’m some kind of paranoid jerk?’ After that various things have happened: The slight, questionable touches have continued without progressing much, leaving me wondering if I’m overreacting. They’ve continued with the addition of lewd comments, bringing out my icy glare and non-participation. The guy full-on gropes before exiting the subway, bar, etc. though, as I am already questioning my observations, my reflexes are crap and I’m left wondering, ‘Wait, did that really happen?’ This thread is kind of funny (and sad, of course). There are the people asking why she didn’t clock him, the people thinking she probably misinterpreted it or is overreacting, and the people who aren’t sure but think, because she hasn’t reported him, something’s fishy. As if all these things aren’t quite clearly connected. To me, the fact that she hasn’t complained to the guy himself or the higher ups means she’s telling the truth but doesn’t want to be seen as a troublemaker. Even if people believe her – the stuff he was doing sounds subtle enough that people of a certain age probably wouldn’t bat an eyelash. That’s what creeps like this count on – that women will second-guess their observations, and that their literal description of the events will come off sounding laughable. Leaning? Rubbing? Even hair stroking could have been ‘an accidental graze’? My guess is she knows that, while many women have experienced this and the gross, implicit threat of power that’s bound up in it, anyone who hasn’t will think she’s a crybaby. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/26 "2009-04-07T18:11:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > I don’t know how it is with all girls and young women - just how we have raised our daughters, and what I have experienced in terms of their schoolmates and my co-workers. My personal experience has been that the vast majority of women I encounter have little hesitation taking whatever steps they feel necessary to achieve the results they desire. I have often found it frustrating when women seem unwilling to engage in open discussion, but then pursue their agenda behind closed doors. > > I readily acknowledge, however, that my family, social, and work associations have not generally included a terribly wide socio-economic range. It’s a pity that this young woman didn’t have you in her life to teach her to be assertive. I can believe the young woman’s story, but I’d want to confirm it before I’d take action on it. I might sic [**Hal Briston**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=513246) on him. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/27 "2009-04-07T18:20:41Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > While I certainly do not think there is any excuse for the bahavior he is accused of, I don’t understand why she would react as she did. > > Some guy or woman bumps up against my leg either intentionally or un-, and I say **“Excuse me”** in a manner that clearly conveys that I do not wish it repeated. To date, they have never failed to get the hint - tho if they did - I would have no difficulty saying it louder the next time, perhaps adding, **“Please do not invade upon my personal space.”** In an office setting you could say, **“I know it is cramped in here, but please try to respect my space.”** Something like that. > > It happens a third time, all bets are off. A loud - **“Will you get away from me/keep your hands to yourself?!”** would be perfectly in order. > > Stroking the hair - I’ve worked in a fed office for 25 years, and have never beein in a situation where I accidentlaly stroked a co-worker’s hair. I think it pretty safe to say you skip step 1 - and possibly step 2 - above. > > IME, the feds take charges of sexual harrassment - um - somewhat seriously. What I mean is they will respond quickly to an accusation. But they will tend to reassign the offender, making him someone else’s problem. > > It sucks that some people take advantage of other people. But some people allow themselves to be taken advantage of - which lessens the sympathy I feel for those particulr people. Winner winner, chicken dinner. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/28 "2009-04-07T18:22:46Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I said I would have slapped him. On second thought, I would have said in my iciest low voice, “Listen, sir. Touch me one more time and I will slap you.” > > She said that was why she had bumped against me, trying to move farther away from him. She asked me to share her table tomorrow to keep him away from her. I asked her why she doesn’t report him and get him fired. She said since we’re now federal employees, she’s covered under Title VII. > . Physical violence against a fellow employee will get you fired so fast you won’t even have time to clean out your desk. She needs to tell him no. After that she should file a complaint. However, since you did not witness this behaviour you have no business interferring. I mean, perhaps she’s making it up and she shoudl be fired for making false statements and spreading rumours. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/29 "2009-04-07T18:35:32Z")
Is the whole “she’s making it up” thing so common that so many of our fellow Dopers go there first? I keep seeing this in these kinds of threads, and I have to wonder where this comes from. Of course I know this is possible, but is it really that probable??? ---
**Author:** ![Projammer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/projammer/32/559_2.png) [@Projammer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Projammer)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/30 "2009-04-07T19:40:39Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > Is the whole “she’s making it up” thing so common that so many of our fellow Dopers go there first? I keep seeing this in these kinds of threads, and I have to wonder where this comes from. Of course I know this is possible, but is it really that probable??? Unfortunately, yes. And it’s not so much “she’s making it up” as it is that someone made something up. Not just a she-vs-he. Most of us that have been in the workplace long enough have been exposed to false stories or worse, been subject of them. And as for the Dopers going their first, I doubt that most of them went there first, rather that most of the likely explanations have already been covered so they’re just contributing other possibilities. ---
**Author:** ![Free\_Range\_Otter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ba8739/32.png) [@Free\_Range\_Otter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Free_Range_Otter)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/31 "2009-04-07T19:54:44Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > Is the whole “she’s making it up” thing so common that so many of our fellow Dopers go there first? I keep seeing this in these kinds of threads, and I have to wonder where this comes from. Of course I know this is possible, but is it really that probable??? To me, the question is not how probable it is that she made it up; it’s that it IS a possibility. And if you make this kind of accusation in the workplace, you’d better be damned sure that it actually happened, because in all likelihood it could get someone fired. If this really did happen as the OP’s new colleague described, he should be fired. If he didn’t do it, then taking drastic action against him makes him the victim, and to me is just as inappropriate as what he’s accused of. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/32 "2009-04-07T20:05:03Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > Is the whole “she’s making it up” thing so common that so many of our fellow Dopers go there first? I keep seeing this in these kinds of threads, and I have to wonder where this comes from. Of course I know this is possible, but is it really that probable??? I think the perception can be skewed because of the message board format. You mention this to a few friends and they will have varying points of view. You write it on a message board and some people will all answer at once while others will see what’s been written and provide alternate possibilities. Part of it stems from fear, I’m sure, and some personal or friend-of-a-friend incidents of false accusations. If not every female Doper (and I’m not sure about M/F percentages here) is willing to bring up every incident of sexual harassment or assault she or a close friend has ever suffered, before laying charges or not, a thread can look imbalanced. Still, it is sort of troubling (especially in threads about rape), probably because it’s a message many victims get in real life, as I mentioned in my post – ‘Are you _sure_ that’s what happened? Do you really want to ruin someone’s _life_ because you can’t assess a situation properly?’ In this case, you have no obligation to do anything except maybe tell the woman to stand her ground and firmly put the guy in check without making any threats – though I won’t lie, some like the ‘feisty type.’ Sigh. I’ve also found complete denial can work, too. Absolutely no response to him whatsoever. every innuendo gets a blank look, every touch gets a confused and loud, ‘Oops, I think you thought you were touching the chair, but it was really my leg.’ Not that this will help the next person in her situation. Anyway, if this guy is a creep, chances are it’s already well-known. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/33 "2009-04-07T21:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > I asked her why she doesn’t report him and get him fired. She said since we’re now federal employees, she’s covered under Title VII. I don’t get it. Title VII is about discrimination based on sex, race or religion. Sexual Harassment has sometimes been considered as a type of sexual discrimination in light of Title VII. I know the federal government has certain exemptions from strict Title VII compliance but I’m damn sure that doesn’t mean federal employees are helpless when seated next to Handsy McGrabass. Anyway, the Miss Manners Solution when someone touches you without your permission is to shriek and jump like you’ve been stuck with an ice pick. Then while staring at the offender in horror, you may murmur, “Oh you startled me.” The great part about this is it leaves the offender facing a crowd of people staring at him and imagining all sorts of stuff. Miss Manners is hardcore. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/34 "2009-04-07T21:32:22Z")
> [@niblet\_head](#): > > Is the whole “she’s making it up” thing so common that so many of our fellow Dopers go there first? I keep seeing this in these kinds of threads, and I have to wonder where this comes from. Of course I know this is possible, but is it really that probable??? The “stroking her hair” bit is so over-the-top that my frist reaction was to wonder how that could be possible. ---
**Author:** ![Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/e56c9b/32.png) [@Harriet\_the\_Spry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Harriet_the_Spry)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/35 "2009-04-07T21:36:57Z")
As an HR person, I would have to say I’d appreciate you (the OP) mentioning this to me. No, I can’t promise that it won’t cause any uncomfortable situations for you, but from an HR perspective this situation would be good to know about. The organization has just brought on at least one problem employee. (I’m assuming you’re all new employees in training together) Either the guy is a harassment lawsuit waiting to happen, or the woman is out to get some kind of settlement. While false accusations happen sometimes, if the two of them are both brand new to the organization it seems unlikely she’s trying to ruin his career. If the accusation is false, it seems more likely she’s seriously delusional or a committed scammer. If you do talk to someone in HR, just state what you were told. Don’t interpret, don’t express any interest in getting involved further with the situation. I found the woman’s statement “covered by Title VII” to be odd. Title VII of the Civil Rights Act of 1964 is what protects private sector employees from sexual harassment (and other types of discrimination). Federal employment is governed by different regulations, but those regulations are definitely up to the task. There is no factual reason why being a government employee should make her not report this incident. The fact that she is talking about Title VII strikes me as a little odd. I mean, _I’m_ familiar with it, but even a lot of HR people aren’t going to rattle that off. This post came across as kind of skeptical of the woman’s claim, probably more than I meant to. There are definitely harassers who operate just like \*\*Cat Fight \*\* describes. From an HR perspective I would definitely find this complaint credible enough to investigate. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/36 "2009-04-07T21:38:42Z")
Do I know if this actually occurred? No. Do I have experience with a number of men pawing me when I was younger? Absolutely, from being felt up in an crowded elevator to my boyfriend’s uncle telling me I could go upstairs to his (uncle’s) room and have sex (at a family party no less!) to one doctor who offered me the keys to his Ferrari if I would sleep with him. No, it was not a joke. I have been pawed by men, propositioned by men and cursed out by men when I turned them down. Not scads of men, but enough where I became extremely leery of men in public. So, given my past experience with men, I think it highly likely that this guy is doing just what is described. My younger self was very conflicted as to how to handle this. If you have not been raised to be “good”, you have no idea how hard it is to break out of that particular box and stick up for yourself. If this woman is 24, she is just starting to find that out. No doubt, this guy is much older, more assured, and counts on her being complicit in her own abuse. Sadly, it works. I do hope this job training includes what to do in case of sexual harassment. That might give her some courage to speak up. If this guy is indeed doing this, he is a major creep and should be fired. :mad: ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/37 "2009-04-07T21:40:07Z")
I thought this thread was going to be about Clarence Thomas. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/38 "2009-04-07T21:44:04Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > So, given my past experience with men, I think it highly likely that this guy is doing just what is described. : I think it’s highly likely that some dude somewhere is doing this. But here we don’t even have the original claimant, it’s purely a 2nd hand FoaF tale. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/39 "2009-04-07T21:47:12Z")
> [@bengangmo](#): > > She should have said something to him at the time. Its not actually sexual harrassment until she tells / asks him to stop. Huh? Sexual harassment is defined as the harasser’s actions fitting into categories which speak for themselves; the victim doesn’t need to say something directly to the harasser. If they decide to report it directly to HR and not confront the harasser, it doesn’t make it any less sexual harassment. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2009, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/40 "2009-04-07T21:54:22Z")
> [@Merneith](#): > > Anyway, the Miss Manners Solution when someone touches you without your permission is to shriek and jump like you’ve been stuck with an ice pick. Then while staring at the offender in horror, you may murmur, “Oh you startled me.” The great part about this is it leaves the offender facing a crowd of people staring at him and imagining all sorts of stuff. Miss Manners is hardcore. Miss Manners is hardcore. This is a great response. I am an old guy, I work for the government and I completely believe this young women’s story. Granted, we are hearing it second hand. I wouldn’t have believe it 20 years ago but I’ve seen enough since then to have learned. It only takes one creep in a office - he will try every women in the place until he is stopped. I was talking to a couple of young ladies (late 20’s maybe) and a guy’s name came up (maybe 45?, kinda icky looking in my opinion). They exchanged glances. After some more talk it turns out this guy has hit on every women under the age of 30 in the whole place and not in a nice way either. In the creepy leering way. Who knew? Apparently women talk about this stuff to their peers but they don’t ever mention it to anyone else. So here’s thus guy and every new girl that walks through the door is going to get the leering and advances and all the other girls know it. Maybe they warn each other? What’s up with that? Anyway, there are some creepy dudes out there and they do some creepy stuff that I never knew about because I was never a young women, thank goodness. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228.md?page=3)