# Creepy sexual harasser on a US government salary **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228 "2009-04-07T04:53:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/81 "2009-04-08T17:43:42Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Then why are women always asking their husbands whether they’d remarry if they (wives) died, eh? :dubious: I wasn’t aware that women did that. How weird is that? I meant hypotheticals like this: you are the woman in this scenario in the OP. Do you go to another female coworker and say something like, “what if there was a new female employee and her hair was stroked all day at this one training session? What would you do if you were that woman?” People don’t talk like that (much). It’s more likely that the person would describe what happened and then ask for feedback. IME, hypotheticals lead to others saying “I can’t follow the story, just spill.” YMMV. I agree with **Dr Deth** in this regard: those type of questions should never be taken at face value. The woman is looking for something else–most likely validation or a compliment. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/82 "2009-04-08T17:45:05Z")
I have no problem believing this young woman’s story. I’ve worked as a government contractor for 10 years now and I’ve seen more of this type of behavior than I would believe. In my current job for instance we had a nice young woman start with us a few months ago. She’s 26 or so, so just getting started in her career. A very attractive young lady…which isn’t always common in the contracting world. Our Director…a GS-15…had been doing the touchy-feely sublte thing since she started working. It culminated in him **sitting in her lap** one day. She was horrified, and rightfully so, but also didn’t respond at the time, because really who here has an automatic response to something like that. It boggles my mind what men will do…and I’m a bit of a perv, so if I think you’re out of line, buddy you’re way past it. I will also say that I can count on one hand the number of places that I’ve worked that **didn’t** have a young woman that dressed inappropriatly and used flirty methods to get ahead, or gain positions higher up in the organization. So until you get rid of all of **those** people, you’re going to have men that think that sort of thing is all right. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/83 "2009-04-08T18:48:14Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > As a matter of fact, we covered that in training today (very briefly). Title VII had been mentioned in training toward the end of the workday yesterday, which is how she came to mention it right afterward. Oh - well then maybe you could get the trainer to cover sexual harassment in more detail. I mean it sort of really sucks that while the trainer is skipping blithely passed the subject, someone’s being sexually harassed right there in the audience. It would seem incumbent on the trainer to explain specifically what behavior is unacceptable to your company and what steps to take if you witness or experience it. I would think this especially true since the company is about to send everyone into the wild, unsupervised. > [@bengangmo](#): > > I am a guy, I consider it quite normal to compliment my female colleagues on a new dress, their perfume or a new haircut. The comment may well be “you look really good in that dress” or something similiar, at times a little flirty (it is well known in the office that I am very happily married) - if the lady feels at all uncomfortable I would of course stop - but I am genuinely making a nice compliment and trying to make her feel good. There’s a difference between saying, “I like your dress” and “You look good in that dress.” The first is a neutral remark about an object. The second is a personal remark about her body. A genuinely nice compliment will take pains to make sure that the remark couldn’t possibly distress the listener. The burden is on the one making the remark to ensure the compliment is appropriate. “Nobody’s complained to HR yet” and “Everyone knows I’m married but flirty” are not sufficient evidence that your compliments pass muster. Just saying, since you offered yourself as an example. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/84 "2009-04-08T19:21:33Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I wasn’t aware that women did that. How weird is that? I meant hypotheticals like this: you are the woman in this scenario in the OP. Do you go to another female coworker and say something like, “what if there was a new female employee and her hair was stroked all day at this one training session? What would you do if you were that woman?” I was kidding, but in all seriousness, _every_ girl I’ve dated (including my now-fiancee) has asked that, or some variation thereon. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/85 "2009-04-08T19:29:58Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > I wasn’t aware that women did that. How weird is that? I meant hypotheticals like this: you are the woman in this scenario in the OP. Do you go to another female coworker and say something like, “what if there was a new female employee and her hair was stroked all day at this one training session? What would you do if you were that woman?”. No, one can say that you had this happen and what should you do. You do not need to include the dudes name or identity. Once you do, you’re no longer looking for advice, you’re spreading a rumor. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/86 "2009-04-08T20:21:55Z")
**eleanorigby** said: > [@](#): > > Enough said. I take you think it’s ok for him to do this shit, but because she feels uncomfortable about it, and intimidated re going to HR, she’s the villain of the piece? What an interesting POV. No, he did not say that, and you interpreting his remarks that way is incredibly odd. He was trying to point out that she shouldn’t be spreading rumors - either take action to correct the problem (tell the guy directly to stop, report to HR), or else let it go. He was not actually commenting on the guy’s alleged behavior. > [@](#): > > Actually, IMO, the young woman/girl in the OP is acting exactly like 99 out of 100 women would act: she is bouncing her take on it off another woman, looking for validation that her POV is not skewed. That is an understandable action, except by putting a name and face on to the actions, she’s starting rumors. Now if she says nothing to anyone else about it, then **Johanna** will still think bad things about this guy. Maybe their paths never cross at work. But maybe they end up in related offices, so he’s around her peripherally, and she has just enough interaction with him to have to be on the alert, without being around him enough to witness anything directly. Does that color her perception of him? Does she mention this to other women, “Hey, watch out for so-and-so, I heard…”? Does she keep it to herself? **Johanna** has been put in an unfair situation because she thinks she knows something without actually knowing anything, but her own behavior will be affected even if she says nothing to anyone else. > [@](#): > > And as the OP says, it is up to the girl to go to HR, not **Johanna**. If **Johanna** does it, it’s hearsay, unless she witnessed it, which she says she did not. It’s up the girl to gather her courage and report it. Most likely, she will not do so, but will attempt to distance herself from the harasser, and avoid him at all costs. That is human nature. As a federal contractor, we have required annual sexual harrassment training. She can report it to her supervisor, she can report it directly to HR, or she can call the Ethics hotline/Ethics Director. Of course, she can also respond directly to him. No, slapping him in the face is not appropriate and will probably get her reprimanded as much as him, but certainly reacting to being touched by saying, “Excuse me, I’m feeling a bit crowded, could you give me a little room?” Or the Miss Manners approach works. Heck, even if she _is_ misreading the situation, the first response is completely appropriate and innocuous. She _is_ feeling crowded and needs some space. Thus, she could take that action without having to have her perceptions validated by an “objective third party”. And if he doesn’t comply to the polite request, then he definitely has done something that deserves being reported. That would certainly be good advice to pass along to her for any future similar situations, regardless of what happens here. Even if she doesn’t want to be a troublemaker, there’s nothing in that response that could be perceived as making trouble. She’s making a polite request. Hell, I ran into a _guy_ who said something similar to me. He was from New York City, and apparently my concept of personal space in a conference room was not his. As far as how to handle this, I second that **Johanna** should ask the class instructor to go over sexual harassment policy a bit further, and talk about what counts, and how the recipient should act. She doesn’t need to mention any names, or even suggest it occurred, just ask for some clarification for the group. That can be done innocuously without drawing any attention, yet very pointedly get the girl’s attention, and perhaps even the man’s. Though probably not on the latter. Still, point out that what may be acceptable in a bar is not appropriate in the workplace. **niblet\_head** said: > [@](#): > > Wow. All that after two days of training?? That’s a lotta hate in less than 16 hours, my friend. Maybe she actually knew him from before. Possible? If they’re both strangers to you, how do you know? ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/87 "2009-04-08T20:29:28Z")
That’s highly unlikely and you know it. She’s mid-twenties, he’s middle aged, and they both happen to get hired at the same time and put into the same training class? She’s a pretty wiley bitch! Now, can we get back to what is more probable to happen in reality??? It’s much more likely she’s a naive/inexperienced young woman who doesn’t know how to handle a letch. PS - I interpreted \*\*DrDeth’s \*\*remark exactly the same way \*\*eleanor \*\*did. I don’t find it odd at all. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/88 "2009-04-08T21:15:16Z")
> [@Lizard](#): > > That’s because in the British legal system (on which New Zealand’s is based) there is no overt presumption of innocence, as there is in the U.S. It’s that way for all crimes, not just sexual assault. New Zealander checking in. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [April 8, 2009, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/89 "2009-04-08T23:14:23Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I was kidding, but in all seriousness, _every_ girl I’ve dated (including my now-fiancee) has asked that, or some variation thereon. Gah–I thought you were a woman! Just goes to show one can never tell online… **Dr Deth** –I see what you want now. I can see it playing out that way. In this case, though, I don’t see this girl as just “spreading rumors”–I see her confiding in someone who may have seen some of this behavior (but **Johanna** did not). I acquit this girl of malice aforethought. **irishman** –no, I didn’t interpret it oddly. I quoted him and it can be read as “I find her behavior disgusting.” It was not clear. Subsequent posts by him clarified his point. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/90 "2009-04-09T03:53:15Z")
Today he got to sit next to her again. This morning I asked if he was bothering her today, and she said although he hadn’t tried anything so far, she found him annoying. Then in the afternoon she silently indicated to me to look what he was doing. He had extended his elbow sideways into her space, to where he could easily “accidentally” brush against her. His elbow was way over onto her table, a couple inches from her. I moved my chair aside and gave her room to move away out of his reach. She silently wrote a note to me: “Space invaders.” This sort of “innocent” encroachment is probably what he is counting on to give him plausible deniability. Tomorrow is the last day of training, a half day. I will speak to the trainer about going over the sexual harassment rules and procedures in more detail, although we have gotten behind schedule and I don’t know if she’ll find time for it. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/91 "2009-04-09T06:46:15Z")
My wife has been doing training with the census occasionally, and there are two significant classes of people doing the census work around here: retirees looking for part-time work to fill the time or supplement their income (because the census pays pretty well), and young college kids or former stay-at-home parents whose kids are now in school and who are looking for some extra money or for a way to pass the days. She’s seen, and even experienced, more of this kind of thing than I would have expected, generally between older men and younger women. One sixty-year-old guy put his hand on her thigh – just three inches from her crotch, for crying out loud – and said “I’m sorry, dear, I can never remember your name.” She didn’t say anything or do anything because she had no idea if that was appropriate behavior or not (she’s extremely shy and nonconfrontational) but it weirded her out enough that she asked me what I thought about it later and said it made her uncomfortable. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/92 "2009-04-09T13:47:29Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Today he got to sit next to her again. This morning I asked if he was bothering her today, and she said although he hadn’t tried anything so far, she found him annoying. Then in the afternoon she silently indicated to me to look what he was doing. He had extended his elbow sideways into her space, to where he could easily “accidentally” brush against her. His elbow was way over onto her table, a couple inches from her. … All right - enough people have chimed in on how not every young woman knows that this is inappropriate, or that they can respond to it. But your co-worker is clearly no longer in such a position, no? What is stopping her from saying, “Excuse me, ut would you please move over a bit?” Or failing that - accidentally whack him with a binder. Or spill a cup of hot coffee. Cut with the silent victim crap. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/93 "2009-04-09T14:05:01Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > Gah–I thought you were a woman! Just goes to show one can never tell online… Well _that’s_ never happened before. Perhaps I should hang a flag from my penis or something. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/94 "2009-04-09T19:16:40Z")
> [@Dinsdale](#): > > All right - enough people have chimed in on how not every young woman knows that this is inappropriate, or that they can respond to it. But your co-worker is clearly no longer in such a position, no? What is stopping her from saying, “Excuse me, ut would you please move over a bit?” Or failing that - accidentally whack him with a binder. Or spill a cup of hot coffee. > > Cut with the silent victim crap. She probably doesn’t know how to be assertive. She was probably raised to be a Good Girl. Now she needs to learn to say “Keep your hands to YOURSELF, asshole” in a clear, carrying voice. Even a cold cup of something might be effective. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/95 "2009-04-09T19:39:19Z")
Agree. I honestly don’t think this situation rises to the level of sexual harrassment, but it certainly is inappropriate. This woman needs to understand the two-pronged reality of womanhood: 1. It’s ok to ask people/tell people to stop. Whatever it may be. 2. It’s ok if it causes that person to be mad or even not like you. She could even see this opportunity as a scientific experiment (especially since she’ll hopefully never see this creep again): Hypothesis - if I stand up for myself, the sky will not fall down. “Excuse me, would you please move your arm?” And then observe the results. ---
**Author:** ![Cat\_Fight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/90ced4/32.png) [@Cat\_Fight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cat_Fight)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/96 "2009-04-09T19:50:32Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > She’s seen, and even experienced, more of this kind of thing than I would have expected, generally between older men and younger women. One sixty-year-old guy put his hand on her thigh – just three inches from her crotch, for crying out loud – and said “I’m sorry, dear, I can never remember your name.” She didn’t say anything or do anything because she had no idea if that was appropriate behavior or not (she’s extremely shy and nonconfrontational) but it weirded her out enough that she asked me what I thought about it later and said it made her uncomfortable. According to a few posters here, it seems she was stupid for not doing anything about it right then and a gossip for telling you rather than going to the authorities. Or possibly had it in for the guy. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/97 "2009-04-09T19:56:22Z")
> [@chorpler](#): > > My wife has been doing training with the census occasionally, and there are two significant classes of people doing the census work around here: retirees looking for part-time work to fill the time or supplement their income (because the census pays pretty well), and young college kids or former stay-at-home parents whose kids are now in school and who are looking for some extra money or for a way to pass the days. > > She’s seen, and even experienced, more of this kind of thing than I would have expected, generally between older men and younger women. One sixty-year-old guy put his hand on her thigh – just three inches from her crotch, for crying out loud – and said “I’m sorry, dear, I can never remember your name.” She didn’t say anything or do anything because she had no idea if that was appropriate behavior or not (she’s extremely shy and nonconfrontational) but it weirded her out enough that she asked me what I thought about it later and said it made her uncomfortable. This is extremely inappropriate, isn’t it? The old codger knew exactly what he was doing, he has done it before and he will do it again. I’ll bet anyone a buck this leech doesn’t put his hand on a man that way when he can’t remember that person’s name. Really, somebody tell me: is it OK for me put my hands on women’s legs, because sometimes I really want to and it would be really cool to find out that it is acceptable and all these years I’ve just been too chicken. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/98 "2009-04-09T20:08:44Z")
Well, creeps are creeps. I (a woman) was once had a woman grab my hand and plant it, face up, in her crotch and wouldn’t let go. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/99 "2009-04-09T20:15:41Z")
> [@Cat\_Fight](#): > > According to a few posters here, it seems she was stupid for not doing anything about it right then and a gossip for telling you rather than going to the authorities. Or possibly had it in for the guy. Yeah, that attitude creeped me out–seems textbook “blame the victim” to me. It’s pretty unfair. It’s not like she wants to be in this situation. He’s the one creating it. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/100 "2009-04-09T20:19:08Z")
Hey, now. You’re going to ruin his reputation! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228.md?page=6)