# Creepy sexual harasser on a US government salary **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 7, 2009, 4:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228 "2009-04-07T04:53:58Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/101 "2009-04-09T20:19:38Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah, that attitude creeped me out–seems textbook “blame the victim” to me. It’s pretty unfair. It’s not like she wants to be in this situation. He’s the one creating it. This again assumes _that she was telling the truth and he was being a creep_. Even if so, then all she had to do is report it. “Blaming the victim” is when someone sez '“It was their (the victim’s) fault as they…”. This is not what I said. I said that no matter the truth of the situation she has a duty to report it. If she refuses to report it, then spreading nasty rumors is the wrong thing to so. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/102 "2009-04-09T20:22:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This again assumes _that she was telling the truth and he was being a creep_. Even if so, then all she had to do is report it. > > “Blaming the victim” is when someone sez '“It was their (the victim’s) fault as they…”. This is not what I said. I said that no matter the truth of the situation she has a duty to report it. If she refuses to report it, then spreading nasty rumors is the wrong thing to so. I don’t think reporting it is all that easy, though, as others have pointed out. And a lot of times victims rationalize the behavior–“Maybe I’m making a big deal out of it, maybe I just imagined it, maybe it wasn’t that bad.” Perhaps talking to someone will give her the support she needs to report it. Or if she talks to others who tell her that he’s harassed them as well, she’ll realize it’s not all in her head. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/103 "2009-04-09T20:29:12Z")
Hypothetically. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/104 "2009-04-09T20:31:06Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah, that attitude creeped me out–seems textbook “blame the victim” to me. I think the attitude is more that by not speaking up, she is allowing herself to be the victim. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/105 "2009-04-09T20:34:02Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > I just started my new federal government job. This first week is taken up with training, everybody sitting at tables formed into a U. To my right at the adjacent table sat a young woman who is 24 years old but looks younger. On her right, sharing her table, sat a man well over twice her age. At the end of the day, when he got up and walked away, we got to talking; she confided to me that he had been leaning onto her chair all day, rubbing up against her, and stroking her hair. EEEWWWW! :mad: > > I said I would have slapped him. On second thought, I would have said in my iciest low voice, “Listen, sir. Touch me one more time and I will slap you.” > > She said that was why she had bumped against me, trying to move farther away from him. She asked me to share her table tomorrow to keep him away from her. I asked her why she doesn’t report him and get him fired. She said since we’re now federal employees, she’s covered under Title VII. > > I urged her to settle his creepy hash but then she said she didn’t care that much. I was disappointed she didn’t decide to file a harassment complaint, but didn’t think it was my call to intervene, it’s up to her. If he isn’t stopped he’ll likely continue to inflict his creepy harassment on other women. I don’t think our fellow Americans would look very kindly on their tax dollars being spent on this guy. I hope she’ll change her mind and get him fired. It would serve him right. She needs to report him to the supervisor immediately. If that supervisor doesn’t do anything about it, elevate it to the next higher level, and notify the union too. There is no reason to allow this to continue. ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/106 "2009-04-09T20:36:26Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > I think the attitude is more that by not speaking up, she is allowing herself to be the victim. Yeah…I’m just saying that it’s not always that easy to speak up, that’s all. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2009, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/107 "2009-04-09T20:46:36Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Yeah…I’m just saying that it’s not always that easy to speak up, that’s all. Maybe not, but there are times when it becomes necessary. If it were my office, I’d take care of this myself (I’m one of the union VP’s). Joking and horseplay are OK, among people who have made it clear that they don’t mind. Double meanings and racy remarks are OK between friends who have voluntarily decided to take part. However, it is not OK when done with someone you don’t know that well, or is uncomfortable/unwilling to take part. Some people either don’t know the difference, or don’t care. It’s the ones who don’t care that are the problem. They need to be “counselled” and made to realize that it is not acceptable and should not be tolerated. The first step is for her to tell him to back off. If he fails to comply with this reasonable request, there are many other ways to make him back off. He wouldn’t like those “other avenues” at all. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/108 "2009-04-10T03:06:02Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > This again assumes _that she was telling the truth and he was being a creep_. Even if so, then all she had to do is report it. > > “Blaming the victim” is when someone sez '“It was their (the victim’s) fault as they…”. This is not what I said. I said that no matter the truth of the situation she has a duty to report it. If she refuses to report it, then spreading nasty rumors is the wrong thing to so. Sure, she has a duty to report it. Of course, she doesn’t know if this will have repercussions on her career (and she might have grown up listening to her male relatives griping about uptight wimminfolk who can’t take a joke) (or she might have heard about female relatives who reported something and never got another promotion…or retention). BUT IF SHE’S TELLING THE TRUTH, SHE’S NOT SPREADING RUMORS. Spreading a rumor implies a falsehood. If this guy is rubbing up against her and otherwise acting inappropriately, then she has a duty to warn other women in that area, as well as report it to HR. She might be looking for moral support to go to HR. And since the OP reported that the guy was disappointed to find his seat taken, I think that we can assume that the guy was, indeed, acting inappropriately. You are blaming the victim in that you assume that she is emotionally able to deal with inappropriate behavior, despite more than one woman telling you that we just aren’t socialized that way, for the most part. Remember, I’m someone who was raised to be a good girl. I was told taught to scream and wait for my knight in shining armor to rescue me from the Big Bad Wolf. But I am also the one who broke some ribs on a would-be rapist, and I’ve fought back physically against other assaults. I KNOW how difficult it can be to overcome early training, conditioning, and socializing. I don’t believe that you know this. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 3:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/109 "2009-04-10T03:12:06Z")
> [@Lynn\_Bodoni](#): > > And since the OP reported that the guy was disappointed to find his seat taken, I think that we can assume that the guy was, indeed, acting inappropriately. > > . That is one hell of a leap you are making. ---
**Author:** ![Lynn\_Bodoni](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e47c2d/32.png) [@Lynn\_Bodoni](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lynn_Bodoni)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 3:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/110 "2009-04-10T03:50:02Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > That is one hell of a leap you are making. Well, on the third day, the guy sat next to her again, and started encroaching on her boundaries again. So no, I don’t think my leap is too terribly off the mark. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/111 "2009-04-10T04:00:38Z")
As reported: He had extended his elbow sideways into her space, to where he could easily “accidentally” brush against her He could also easily fly to the moon. All we have is hearsay evidence that anything untoward has happened- and the sighting of hom being a slob by extending onto her desk. I prefer facts. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/112 "2009-04-10T07:28:52Z")
This time I sat in between him and her again. So he started touching me. Four times in one day. Twice during class he asked me a question about the work, and each time when I answered, he touched my side while saying thanks, under my arm, about an inch from my breast. Other times while we were standing, he also got too close to me and he touched my ass with the bag he was carrying, and my thigh with that wandering elbow of his (while leaning over a table). All in the same day. Those times, he made it seem accidental, so that at the time I experienced doubt about whether it was an accident. But considering the pattern of his behavior as a whole, I think it’s time to report him. It was the last day of training. My other colleague who he touched took my contact information, and promised to write me. I hope to bring her on board and we’ll report this together and back each other up. One or even two incidents might be dismissed as just accidents, but not after all these incidents have mounted up. This is what the federal employee handbook we were issued says about sexual harassment. It doesn’t look like any of it applies to our situation, unless “Creating … an offensive working environment” covers us. Recognizing Sexual Harassment Unwelcome sexual advances, requests for sexual favors, and other verbal or physical conduct of a sexual nature constitutes sexual harassment when any one of the following occurs– - Submission to such conduct is made, either explicitly or implicitly, a term or condition of an individual’s employment; or, - Submission to, or rejection of such conduct is used as the basis for employment decisions affecting such individual. - Such conduct has the purpose or effect of: a) Unreasonably interfering with an individual’s work performance b) Creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment. ---
**Author:** ![Merneith](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/57b2e6/32.png) [@Merneith](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merneith)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/113 "2009-04-10T07:46:21Z")
You’re covered. Pawing you - both, repeatedly - is intimidating, hostile & offensive. He’ll probably try to bleat about it all being ‘accidental’ but no one with any common sense should buy that. Even if he doesn’t get fired, it’s good that he’ll have a record with the supervisor. (Heck, he might already have one. You’re probably not his first targets.) You don’t have to put up with any of it, Johanna. Be strong. Be well. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 7:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/114 "2009-04-10T07:55:12Z")
My sister worked for the federal government and went through something like this. One arrow in your quiver is that the US government is one employer that will take this seriously and if the immediate person in your chain doesn’t, you can keep going up until someone does. Document everything and make sure the people you are talking to, know you are documenting it. Good luck. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 9:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/115 "2009-04-10T09:33:53Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > This time I sat in between him and her again. So he started touching me. Four times in one day. Did you tell him to stop? What did he say? ---
**Author:** ![Malacandra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Malacandra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malacandra)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/116 "2009-04-10T10:55:59Z")
Did you tell him in your > [@Johanna](#): > > iciest low voice, “Listen, sir. Touch me one more time and I will slap you.” ? That’s what you were going to do. Or were you just after ammunition? ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/117 "2009-04-10T11:53:00Z")
> [@Malacandra](#): > > Did you tell him in your? That’s what you were going to do. Or were you just after ammunition? Heh. I’m going to find it difficult to believe that **Johanna** has been socialized to not speak up. ---
**Author:** ![Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Carol\_the\_Impaler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Carol_the_Impaler)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/118 "2009-04-10T14:05:19Z")
**Johanna** , your first responsibility is to tell him to _stop._ Why didn’t you the first time he touched you? You are aware of what he’s doing, and yet continued to allow him to get away with it. Why? You realize, I’m sure, that he’s counting on women to not stand up, to not say anything when their alarm bells go off. I have to say, it bothers me a lot for women to feel they have to run to daddy (HR) to solve their problem. We are not victims and we are not weak, and we are not hapless in the face of creeps. For godsake, tell him you see what he’s doing, it’s not ok, and to knock it off! ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/119 "2009-04-10T14:30:24Z")
Add me to the list of folk who think **Johanna’s** most recent post odd … 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [April 10, 2009, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228/120 "2009-04-10T16:29:21Z")
**eleanorigby** said: > [@](#): > > **irishman** –no, I didn’t interpret it oddly. I quoted him and it can be read as “I find her behavior disgusting.” It was not clear. Subsequent posts by him clarified his point. Sorry, apparently I should have emphasized in my quote. You said: > [@](#): > > I take you think it’s ok for him to do this shit, No. He never said that. That was the part I was reacting to when I said it was weird you interpreted his remark that way. I can accept that she’s young, naive, conditioned not to stand up for herself, doubting herself and what is occurring. I can accept that she’s looking for confirmation/validation from a peer who might have witnessed something. All of that is fine, but the thing is, she has gotten validation. She needs to respond. She needs to react. **Johanna** said: > [@](#): > > This time I sat in between him and her again. So he started touching me. Four times in one day. WTF?!!? You just sat there taking it? > [@](#): > > Twice during class he asked me a question about the work, and each time when I answered, he touched my side while saying thanks, under my arm, about an inch from my breast. That’s where you go, “Please don’t touch me. You don’t know me.” If he does it again, you say in a very loud voice, “I told you to keep your hands off me, next time I will break it off and shove it where the sun doesn’t shine!” > [@](#): > > Those times, he made it seem accidental, so that at the time I experienced doubt about whether it was an accident. So what if is is an accident? Tell him that he should be more careful, pay attention to what he’s doing. If you let him know you are on to him, he will likely back off, because he knows what he is doing is wrong, that’s why he is masking it with “accidents” or “kind gestures touching you to say thanks”. > [@](#): > > b) Creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive working environment. That’s exactly what it is. If he’s making you uncomfortable, tell him so. If he continues, report him. HR will be on your side. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/creepy-sexual-harasser-on-a-us-government-salary/492228.md?page=7)