# Cretaceous extinction exceptions **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 13, 2007, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970 "2007-04-13T16:12:55Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/41 "2007-04-16T21:38:52Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] Not so! [/QUOTE] Adding this to the list of suspicious, if not outright wrong, factoids in this book I’ve been reading. The author’s batting average is closing in on .500, which would be good for a baseball player but really lousy for a writer of supposed nonfiction. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/42 "2007-04-16T21:50:03Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] You know, it gets much, much worse. [/quote] Charles Sibley, who did a lot of early work on bird genetics, attempted to shoehorn his findings into a Linnean system while still recognizing the cladistic branches. Because he ran out of rankings, he was forced to recognize Ciconiformes, an Order that normally just includes herons and storks, as also including shorebirds, gulls, eagles, penguins, pelicans, albatrosses, and a whole grab-bag of others that normally get their own Orders or Suborders. > [@](#): > > And I frankly see no reason not to regard “dinosaur” as “a paraphyletic grouping of the tetrapodal land-living and amphibious members of Clade Dinosauria, which went extinct at or before the end of the Cretaceous, explicitly excluding crown group Aves” vs. “birds” as “the feathered, winged and flying or sedcondarily flightless members of Clade Aves, a subclade of Clade Dinosauria.” Which eliminates the irony implicit in “non-avian dinosaurs” or the jokes about “the dinosaurs are migrating north for the spring.” I’m fine with paraphyletic groups in informal usage, such as “dinosaurs” excluding birds, “fish” excluding tetrapods, and “apes” excluding humans. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 16, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/43 "2007-04-16T22:22:58Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] I’m fine with paraphyletic groups in informal usage, such as “dinosaurs” excluding birds, “fish” excluding tetrapods, and “apes” excluding humans. [/QUOTE] Lest anyone think I am some sort of cladistics-nazi, I, too, am perfectly fine with informal paraphyletic arrangements, so long as it is made clear what groups are being included or excluded. I try to do this whenever I wax taxonomical, but there may well be lapses on my part. When I talk about “dinosaurs”, I’m usually referring to the same group of critters most folks think of when they hear the word. But when I say “Dinosauria”, I’m usually talking about the more formal definition of “dinosaurs” + Aves (or, more accurately, the published definition of “the most recent common ancestor of _Triceratops_ and _Passer_, and all its descendants”). Polyphyletic groups are right out, though 😛 ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/44 "2007-04-17T00:13:27Z")
[QUOTE=Colibri] There’s nothing false about it. It’s a perfectly valid Linnean hierarchy that represents the actual cladistic groupings. No, it is not “really” anything. As I have repeatedly pointed out to you, there is no “official” higher classification of these groups. I don’t know why you have so much trouble grasping this simple fact. Once again, the idea that “Theropoda is currently a Suborder” presupposes that there is some objective standard or official endorsement that makes it a Suborder. There is none. It is not a “fact” that Theropoda is a Suborder; this is an _opinion_ that can vary between taxonomists. I have repeatedly pointed them out, as have others. You have made repeated errors concerning taxonomic standards and practice. You have also stated that the evidence for birds being dinosaurs is “slim” when in fact it is voluminous. There are many others. It isn’t an ad hominum attack when I point out that most of what you have posted is based on a complete misunderstanding of the key issues involved. I haven’t made any remarks about you personally, other than commenting on the level of knowledge that is evident from your posts. This is relevant to the discussion. You could quite easily stop it by refraining from posting nonsense. As long as you continue to do so, I’ll continue to refute it, per GQ practice. [/QUOTE] It’s a false hierarchy, no scientist uses those terms for those groupings. Well, since 99.99% of scentists use those Linnean groupings at time, you can say they are not “official” all you want. But then, what _official group_ made dinosaurs into birds? OK, then go ahead and give me one real scientist that agrees that Theropods are a Infraclass. Just _one_ Cite from Google Scholar, that is all I ask. I have given you several hundred scientists that agree with me. I mean what are you doing- raising the “Humpty Dumpty” defence= “a word means anything I say it does”.? :rolleyes: Get real. It is fact, I have gave you numerous cites for it. Be silly all you want, you know you’re wrong here. No, so far you have not pointed out a single error. You have repeated over and over and over that I have made errors, but you refuse to cite one example. You say “voluminous” I say “slim”- so if we are just going by Official bodies, which Official body has ruled it is “voluminous”? Come on now, dude, if all the "error " you can find is a difference in degree, just roll over now. If I am that wrong you should have been able to smother me with facts and cites by now. I note not a single cite. Again I request you stop with the Ad Hominen attacks, the general nonsense and the hijack. It isn’t becoming of you. Stick with the thread and the question at hand please. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/45 "2007-04-17T00:24:57Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] You say “voluminous” I say “slim”- so if we are just going by Official bodies, which Official body has ruled it is “voluminous”? [/QUOTE] Just as a point of fact, between 1973 and 2001, at least 90 papers have been published supporting the bird-to-dinosaur link, by at least 65 different authors. For the basal archosaur-to-bird link, there have been 33 papers published in the same time period, by at least 20 authors. So, either way you look at it, there’s about a 3:1 consensus among scientists that birds are dinosaurs, not counting anything published within the last 6 years. I would guess that, if anything, the ratio has increased since 2001. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/46 "2007-04-17T00:46:36Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] Just as a point of fact, between 1973 and 2001, at least 90 papers have been published supporting the bird-to-dinosaur link, by at least 65 different authors. For the basal archosaur-to-bird link, there have been 33 papers published in the same time period, by at least 20 authors. So, either way you look at it, there’s about a 3:1 consensus among scientists that birds are dinosaurs, not counting anything published within the last 6 years. I would guess that, if anything, the ratio has increased since 2001. [/QUOTE] I have conceded that “birds is dinos” is the current Scientific generally accepted Theory. In fact I have conceded this several times,and I listed the basal archosaur-to-bird link as “hotly disputed”. (Which is not quite the same as “totally disproved”, of course) Still it’s hardly on the level of the Earth revolves around the Sun, is it? 😃 And there’s new and exciting fossils being dug every day. Who knows? Want my WAG? It will turn out _more_ to be along the general lines of “dinos is birds” than “birds is dinos” with Ornithischia and Saurischia being (extinct) Orders within Aves. Not exactly mind you, but something along those lines. And, although I will cheerfully concede your 3:1 ratio, there’s a 561:0 ratio in cites between “suborder Theropoda” and “Order Saurischia” compared to “Infraclass Theropoda”! 😃😛 I agree, however, that the Linnean Rankings aren’t always useful. Cladistics can be a better tool, especially when questions like this come up. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/47 "2007-04-17T03:05:01Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] It’s a false hierarchy, no scientist uses those terms for those groupings. [/quote] Irrelevant to my point. > [@](#): > > Well, since 99.99% of scentists use those Linnean groupings at time, you can say they are not “official” all you want. But then, what _official group_ made dinosaurs into birds? OK, then go ahead and give me one real scientist that agrees that Theropods are a Infraclass. Just _one_ Cite from Google Scholar, that is all I ask. I have given you several hundred scientists that agree with me. I mean what are you doing- raising the “Humpty Dumpty” defence= “a word means anything I say it does”.? :rolleyes: Get real. Again, completely irrelevant to my point. > [@](#): > > It is fact, I have gave you numerous cites for it. Be silly all you want, you know you’re wrong here. Your cites are irrelevant to my point. > [@](#): > > No, so far you have not pointed out a single error. You have repeated over and over and over that I have made errors, but you refuse to cite one example. You have repeated over and over you have not made errors. I have pointed them out and explained them in posts 20, 24, 26, 31, and 38. > [@](#): > > You say “voluminous” I say “slim”- so if we are just going by Official bodies, which Official body has ruled it is “voluminous”? Come on now, dude, if all the "error " you can find is a difference in degree, just roll over now. If I am that wrong you should have been able to smother me with facts and cites by now. I note not a single cite. I refer you to \*\*Darwin’s Finch’s \*\* post. I would also note that your own Wikipedia cite refers to birds as members of the Theropoda. > [@](#): > > Again I request you stop with the Ad Hominen attacks, the general nonsense and the hijack. It isn’t becoming of you. Stick with the thread and the question at hand please. I haven’t made any ad hominem attacks. As I said before, you can stop the hijack yourself by stopping posting on the subject. Most of what you have posted is in fact nonsense, and I am certainly not going to refrain from addressing it. ---
**Author:** ![Darwins\_Finch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darwins_finch/32/20304_2.png) [@Darwins\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darwins_Finch)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/48 "2007-04-17T04:13:47Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] Want my WAG? It will turn out _more_ to be along the general lines of “dinos is birds” than “birds is dinos” with Ornithischia and Saurischia being (extinct) Orders within Aves. Not exactly mind you, but something along those lines. [/QUOTE] [George Olshevsky](http://www.dinoruss.com/de_4/5c60bbe.htm), [is that you?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur-bird_connection#Birds_Came_First) ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 6:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/49 "2007-04-17T06:27:19Z")
[QUOTE=Darwin’s Finch] [George Olshevsky](http://www.dinoruss.com/de_4/5c60bbe.htm), [is that you?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dinosaur-bird_connection#Birds_Came_First) [/QUOTE] Yeah I know. 😃 Note he is being taken somewhat seriously, even though with great doubt. But if some very interesting fossils (like those currently being found in China) are found he may yet turn out to be right. Anyway, I like it. Never bought the "huge lumbering lizard’ thing but hated the whole “dinosaurs flying south for the winter” :rolleyes: meme, and this would get rid of them both. Oh well. But thanks for that first cite, an interesting read. 🆒 \*\* Colibri\*\*-- Are you done yet? Can we get back to discussing the point here? Do you have anything to add? ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 17, 2007, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970/50 "2007-04-17T14:17:22Z")
[QUOTE=DrDeth] \*\* Colibri\*\*-- Are you done yet? Can we get back to discussing the point here? Do you have anything to add? [/QUOTE] As I’ve already said, as long as you refrain from posting erroneous information, I won’t have need to correct it. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cretaceous-extinction-exceptions/399970.md?page=2)