# CREW sues WH for info about FIVE MILLION missing e-mails **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 23, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288 "2007-05-23T22:40:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/1 "2007-05-23T22:40:20Z")
[CREW](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Citizens_for_Responsibility_and_Ethics_in_Washington) (Committee for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington) is suing the WH for refusing to comply with its FOIA request regarding five million apparently missing e-mails generated between March 2003 and October 2005. Yes, that’s five million. Stories [here](http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/27607) and [here.](http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/28521) How the hell could the WH lose **five million** e-mails?! What are they about, I wonder? What does that time-frame suggest? Will CREW win the suit? ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/2 "2007-05-23T23:34:26Z")
Five million e-mails ÷ 32 months = 156,250 e-mails per month or about 5,200 per day. Yowzah. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/3 "2007-05-23T23:35:49Z")
[QUOTE=Patty O’Furniture] Five million e-mails ÷ 32 months = 156,250 e-mails per month or about 5,200 per day. Yowzah. [/QUOTE] I know. It astounds me that even the WH can **generate** that many in a day. But then, it’s a big country and a big government. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/4 "2007-05-23T23:38:25Z")
Who knows? Have you ever worked in a big office building? Five million emails isn’t very big, to be honest. I’m one person and I get about 100 business related emails per day. If it was some sort of deep, dark, evilll conspiracy I don’t think there’d be anywhere near 5,000,000 emails about it. The White House (West Wing) has hundreds of employees with personal computers, and “the White House” could also include the Eisenhower Executive Office Building (where many members of the President’s staff work because the office has outgrown the West Wing, which was built during the Presidency of Theodore Roosevelt.) 5,000,000 emails generated over a 2 year period by hundreds and hundreds of staffers is probably only a small portion of the the total number of emails the “White House” deals with. I wouldn’t be surprised if that is only a small portion of the _monthly_ email load. IT systems aren’t perfect, a lot of emails probably aren’t kept forever. It’s entirely possible, of course, to hide emails you don’t want getting out by making sure they get lost. But it’d be even easier to just claim executive privilege, this is just an FOIA request, lots of stuff is immune to FOIA requests, this isn’t like an investigation by a special prosecutor who has authority to get access to documents which private entities normally can’t get access to even through FOIA requests. (Also, both of the stories you linked didn’t load up for me.) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/5 "2007-05-23T23:39:37Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] (Also, both of the stories you linked didn’t load up for me.) [/QUOTE] I just clicked the links and they both worked. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/6 "2007-05-23T23:45:31Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I know. It astounds me that even the WH can **generate** that many in a day. But then, it’s a big country and a big government. [/QUOTE] Really? Take 100 staffers, each one generates 50 e-mails in one day. If the stories you linked to worked I may have a better idea about what they mean by “White House e-mails.” Does it mean e-mails sent to White House workers by other government officials? _Any_ e-mails received by White House staff? Only e-mails sent out by White House staff? How reasonable it is depends on how we define “White House e-mail.” If it is simply “how many e-mails does a person who works for the executive send + receive in a day” then 5,000,000 is pretty reasonable. Because the President has way more than 100 staffers (the Executive Office of the President has around 1,800 employees–and there are a few organizations outside the EOP that work out of the White House, or the Eisenhower Executive Office Building.) ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/7 "2007-05-23T23:46:42Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] I just clicked the links and they both worked. Try again. [/QUOTE] Just did…still not working. [Link 1](http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/27607) [Link 2](http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/28521) 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [May 23, 2007, 11:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/8 "2007-05-23T23:55:47Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Just did…still not working. [Link 1](http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/27607) [Link 2](http://www.citizensforethics.org/node/28521) 😕 [/QUOTE] I haven’t a dog in this fight, but they work for me. Try c&pasting them into a browser window, sometimes that works. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/9 "2007-05-24T00:10:55Z")
[QUOTE=Anaamika] I haven’t a dog in this fight, but they work for me. Try c&pasting them into a browser window, sometimes that works. [/QUOTE] I’ve done that, they still won’t load. 😕 I keep getting the message, “Firefox can’t find the server at [www.citizensforethics.org](http://www.citizensforethics.org).” I’ve even tried just going to the main site itself instead of the articles BG linked to, and [www.citizensforethics.org](http://www.citizensforethics.org) doesn’t load for me, either. ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/10 "2007-05-24T00:13:12Z")
Yea, it’s not that many, it’s a small percentage of the whole. Only the ones that cover things they are being indicted about. Can you perform a RICO investigation about your own government? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/11 "2007-05-24T00:16:31Z")
[QUOTE=mswas] Yea, it’s not that many, it’s a small percentage of the whole. Only the ones that cover things they are being indicted about. [/quote] Do you have any factual basis for that assertion? I still can’t get **BrainGlutton** ’s links to work but I found another website that reported on the story [here](http://www.yubanet.com/artman/publish/article_57594.shtml), and there’s nothing in there that suggests anything one way or the other about the _content_ of the missing e-mails. The article seems to suggest CREW’s biggest problem is that the Office of Administration has poor record-keeping policies and CREW believes it should be rectified. But I’m not 100% sure from the article I found if that is their motivation or not. > [@](#): > > Can you perform a RICO investigation about your own government? Only if you view the government as an ongoing criminal organization. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/12 "2007-05-24T00:20:15Z")
Suppose I compose an e-mail and send it to 10 people, and two years later no trace of the e-mail can be found. How many e-mails should be reported as missing? Furthermore, if they are indeed missing, how can the number be accurately tallied? ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/13 "2007-05-24T00:22:59Z")
[QUOTE=Patty O’Furniture] Suppose I compose an e-mail and send it to 10 people, and two years later no trace of the e-mail can be found. How many e-mails should be reported as missing? Furthermore, if they are indeed missing, how can the number be accurately tallied? [/QUOTE] Those are the questions I have as well. If a Deputy Assistant in the Office of Management and Budget sends out e-mails to three friends working in the White House Office of the Executive Clerk inviting them to lunch, is that three e-mails or one? If all three respond is that six total e-mails? Four total e-mails? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/14 "2007-05-24T00:28:20Z")
Look, the problem here is that the WH is **required by law** to keep good records and treat them as public property. Congress passed the [Presidential Records Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Records_Act) in response to Nixon’s arrogance about “his” records and tapes. So the mere **absence** of records that should be there is, in and of itself, a smoking gun. And so is the use by WH officials of a [non-WH domain name.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_e-mail_controversy#gwb43.com) ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/15 "2007-05-24T00:31:50Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] I still can’t get **BrainGlutton** ’s links to work [/QUOTE] Perhaps your DNS has blacklisted them? 😛 As this is a press release intended for public dissemination, I think it’s safe to reproduce it here. A GD mod will correct me if I’m wrong, I’m sure. This is link 2: > [@](#): > > 23 May 2007 // Washington, DC – This week, Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) sued the Office of Administration (OA), a component of the Executive Office of the President (EOP). CREW has also requested a preliminary injunction to compel the OA to respond to a CREW Freedom of Information Act (FOIA). > > On April 12, 2007, CREW released its report, Without a Trace, based on information from two confidential sources, which disclosed the startling revelation that the White House “lost” over five million emails generated between March 2003 and October 2005. > > CREW’s suit is based on a FOIA request filed with the OA on March 29, 2007 for records regarding the over five million missing emails. Although on April 27, 2007, the OA agreed to expedite CREW’s FOIA request, the OA has yet to provide CREW with so much as a single document. > > According to confidential sources, the OA created documents that detail the exact dates for which the over five million emails are missing and that analyzed the scope of the problem. CREW has learned that there is also a political assessment of the harm to public perception of the White House if it became known so many emails had disappeared. In addition, the requested documents include plans CREW was told were presented almost two years ago to restore the missing emails, but were never acted on. > > Melanie Sloan, executive director of CREW said today, “This White House has decided to play an unlawful game of high-tech hide and seek with the American public. Thus far, CREW has learned that the Administration has both lost five million White House emails and pro-actively tried to cover up the loss. CREW has sued the Office of Administration to shine a spotlight on these reckless and possibly illegal activities and to restore these records for the benefit of future generations.” > > * * * > > Citizens for Responsibility and Ethics in Washington (CREW) is a non-profit legal watchdog group dedicated to holding public officials accountable for their actions. > > For more information, please visit [www.citizensforethics.org](http://www.citizensforethics.org) or contact Naomi Seligman Steiner at 202.408.5565/press@citizensforethics.org. Link 1 is about the release of the report referenced in the second paragraph. ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/16 "2007-05-24T00:34:43Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Look, the problem here is that the WH is required by law to keep good records and treat them as public property. Congress passed the Presidential Records Act in response to Nixon’s arrogance about “his” records and tapes. So the mere absence of records that should be there is, in and of itself, a smoking gun. And so is the use by WH officials of a non-WH domain name. The WH’s only defense lately for all these scandals seems to be that they’re just massively incompetent and forgetful. See, they’re not evil and planning all of this behind the scenes…they’re just really, really bad at that whole government thing. Why can’t it be both? ---
**Author:** ![mswas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e99b99/32.png) [@mswas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mswas)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/17 "2007-05-24T00:38:29Z")
**Martin Hyde** I could prove it, but the e-mails that do that are missing. 😜 Just certain factions within it are criminal organizations. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/18 "2007-05-24T00:39:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Look, the problem here is that the WH is **required by law** to keep good records and treat them as public property. Congress passed the [Presidential Records Act](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Presidential_Records_Act) in response to Nixon’s arrogance about “his” records and tapes. So the mere **absence** of records that should be there is, in and of itself, a smoking gun. And so is the use by WH officials of a [non-WH domain name.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bush_White_House_e-mail_controversy#gwb43.com) [/QUOTE] It’s definitely a smoking gun, procedurally, that the OA has bad record keeping. I’ve not seen anything to suggest the 5 million e-mails are lost because of intentional malice versus just simply bad IT policies. It’s a bit unreasonable to act like any problems with e-mail record keeping in an organization that very likely sends and receives _hundreds of millions_ of e-mails per annum is evidence of something “bad.” Should the OA improve its record keeping? Sure. And from what I see, that’s CREW’s real desire here. Calling it a “smoking gun” of anything except bad record keeping is a bit spurious. Like I said, a great many things can be labeled “FOUO” (For Official Use Only) and such info is generally very difficult to get disseminated by FOIA requests–and this is a common practice going back many administrations before people suddenly leap to more excoriations of Bush. It’s unlikely if Bush/the Administration was really talking about something illegal, they would share it in the form of 5 million e-mails. (Insert comment about the administration being both stupid and somehow capable of managing multiple conspiracies against the American people here) ---
**Author:** ![LilShieste](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/9f8e36/32.png) [@LilShieste](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LilShieste)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/19 "2007-05-24T02:24:39Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Calling it a “smoking gun” of anything except bad record keeping is a bit spurious. [/QUOTE] I would actually agree, if this had come out at a different time. However, this is surfacing within the spectrum of various scandals and “potential” scandals. This inherently throws an extra coat of suspicion over everything. LilShieste ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [May 24, 2007, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288/20 "2007-05-24T03:08:30Z")
So they’re either deeply nefarious or wholly incompetent at administration. This is a defense how? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crew-sues-wh-for-info-about-five-million-missing-e-mails/405288.md?page=2)