# Cribbing from other composers by playing the notes in reverse order

**URL:** <https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cribbing-from-other-composers-by-playing-the-notes-in-reverse-order/957425>\
**Category:** Cafe Society\
**Tags:** music\
**Created:** [January 8, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cribbing-from-other-composers-by-playing-the-notes-in-reverse-order/957425 "2022-01-08T12:43:40Z")\
**Posts on this page:** 3\
**Page:** 1

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**Author:** ![Chad\_Sudan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chad_sudan/32/4509_2.png) [@Chad\_Sudan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chad_Sudan)\
**Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cribbing-from-other-composers-by-playing-the-notes-in-reverse-order/957425/1 "2022-01-08T12:43:40Z")

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To write the music for “[Because](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hL0tnrl2L_U)” (off _Abbey Road_), John Lennon said he took the notes for Beethoven’s Moonlight Sonata and played them in reverse order.

Are there other examples of composers stealing from other composers in exactly this way?

(Bonus questions: How likely is it that a well-loved piece of music also sounds great when played backwards? And what are the chances that some listener out there will catch on to such a theft?)

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**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\
**Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cribbing-from-other-composers-by-playing-the-notes-in-reverse-order/957425/2 "2022-01-08T13:03:36Z")

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Playing notes in reverse order, upside-down, etc. is a totally standard musical technique:

> **[Retrograde (music)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retrograde_(music))**
>
> A melodic line that is the reverse of a previously or simultaneously stated line is said to be its retrograde or cancrizans (/ˈkæŋkrɪˌzænz/ "walking backward", medieval Latin, from cancer "crab"). An exact retrograde includes both the pitches and rhythms in reverse. An even more exact retrograde reverses the physical contour of the notes themselves, though this is possible only in electronic music. Some composers choose to subject just the pitches of a musical line to retrograde, or just the r Re...

> **[Permutation (music)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Permutation_(music))**
>
> In music, a permutation (order) of a set is any ordering of the elements of that set. A specific arrangement of a set of discrete entities, or parameters, such as pitch, dynamics, or timbre. Different permutations may be related by transformation, through the application of zero or more operations, such as transposition, inversion, retrogradation, circular permutation (also called rotation), or multiplicative operations (such as the cycle of fourths and cycle of fifths transforms). These may p Or...

Wikipedia says

> According to Willi Apel, the earliest example of retrograde in music is the 13th century clausula, _Nusmido_, in which the tenor has the liturgical melody “Dominus” in retrograde

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**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\
**Post date:** [January 8, 2022, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/cribbing-from-other-composers-by-playing-the-notes-in-reverse-order/957425/3 "2022-01-08T15:48:23Z")

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I assume everyone’s seen this:

[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/jPwNwNdE7pE/hqdefault.jpg "Victor Borge — William Tell Backwards") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPwNwNdE7pE)