# Crikey! British Firefighters on Strike! **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 12, 2002, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453 "2002-11-12T17:41:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/21 "2002-11-13T16:44:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Francesca \* > \*\*Are you _trying_ to get them to call us quaint? 😉 \*\* I was inspired by the “crikey” in the title, what ho! ---
**Author:** ![andymurph64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@andymurph64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andymurph64)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/22 "2002-11-13T16:47:21Z")
jjimm, i used to be a teacher so I understand the pain of trying to make a living in a field in which there are many ‘second income wives’ and people doing it as a calling. I solved the problem by leaving teaching and entering a field where it is not a problem. However, If you can staff positions by people doing it as a calling, so be it. If the positions can not be filled with these types of people then salaries must rise. I have problems with people trying to decide what a position should be paid. A position’s pay should be determined by how much it takes to attract people to the position. However, I do not follow the philosophy that if a position pays more, then the position is more important or more valuable. I make more than a fireman but would be the first to admit that the fireman’s position is much, much more valuable than mine. If a janitor ran for office and I liked his ideas, I would vote for him without hesitation. A position’s pay is based on the supply of people able/willing to do the job (due to educational requirements, aptitude, pleasantness of the job, training required etc.) and how easily the person can be replaced. It is also based on whether the position helps many people or few. Teachers, fireman, journalists, and others will not be payed as much as a good lawyer because, to that one client he is helping get off a murder charge, that lawyer is extremely critical to his future. Also, positions that do not produce their own revenue and rely on tax dollars, however noble, will not be paid as much. Doesn’t mean they are not important. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/23 "2002-11-13T17:29:25Z")
Apparently the Fire Brigades get about 40 applicants for every post, there is no problem filling the posts. But this is not the point, every medical school is over subscribed, and doctors are well paid. Pop Idol gets thousands of entrants, but pop stars are well paid. Most firemen don’t spend a lot of time putting out fires, most of the work is fire safety work. However they are expected to do so at any time. These people all earn more than a fireman (after appropriate training and a few years experience) Nurse Teacher Social Worker Housing Officer Policeman Social Worker All are valuable jobs and surely a fireman is worth at least the same? I live near a TA base and it is being used as a fire station. Those Green Goddesses really do look “Quaint”, or bloody old. ---
**Author:** ![casdave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c6cbf5/32.png) [@casdave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/casdave)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/24 "2002-11-13T18:48:50Z")
> [@](#): > > These people all earn more than a fireman (after appropriate training and a few years experience) …and you will also note that at least two of those have qualified with degrees from university, and that another has to spend a minimum of three years full time study for a diploma **whilst still working a full 40 hour shift work week** , and this allows them to achieve the lowest levels of income in those professions. I know how long it takes to train up as a firefighter, having served my time in the Royal Navy.When a ship is at sea, or worse still, being shot at, and bombed, it is absolutely imperative that the crew are trained and able to operate all the fire fighting equipment quickly and effectively. I have learned search and rescue in blackout conditions, the use of safety lines, the use of closed air breathing appuratus, how to work as a controller for breathing appuratus equipped fire crews, the use of the differant fire-fighting mediums, from superheated steam right down to chemical fire supressors and everything in between, working in enclosed spaces, boundary cooling and a whole lot more, such as first aid, casualty recovery from hostile environments. It might seem like plenty but the truth is that I was able to do this within six months and yet still learn my own full-time job as a maintenance electrician, the latter takes much much longer to learn. If you were to train a firefighter full-time with no other distractions, they could achieve at least 90% competancy within 3 months. All I am saying is that the job is not particularly hard to learn, and it is nothing like as risky as some folk seem to think, more prison officers ae seriously injured every year by violent inmates than fire fighters, and on the scale of things I do not believe anyone can compare the risks that the police have to deal with. Stress is evident in all that group of workers just mentioned, so what I’m saying is that fire fighters do not have particularly rare skills, these are readily learned, it does not take long to achieve a reasonable proficiency, it is neither more dangerous, nor more stressful than many other occupations, many of which are paid less, and there is no problem with recruitment, they are just queuing up to sign on. I do not see why they should get a massive pay increase and risk the entire country wanting a pay rise of similar proprtions at the expense of the economy. The last time this lot went on strike(remeber the “Winter of discontent”), it heralded the collapse of the last Labour government and led to 18 years of Tory rule with all its corruption, unemployment and loss of social cohesion in many towns and cities. When one group of workers seeks to set itself above the rest, the competition that ensues makes everyone the worse off, and the weak are left behind. Colleagues I urge you to reject the motion!! ---
**Author:** ![andymurph64](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/a88e57/32.png) [@andymurph64](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andymurph64)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/25 "2002-11-13T19:52:57Z")
> [@](#): > > Apparently the Fire Brigades get about 40 applicants for every post, there is no problem filling the posts. Then the salary offered must be acceptable. > [@](#): > > But this is not the point, every medical school is over subscribed, and doctors are well paid. From what I’ve heard, but have no cite, is that there is a somewhat of a shortage of doctors. If this is true it would indicate that doctor salaries need to rise. > [@](#): > > Pop Idol gets thousands of entrants, but pop stars are well paid. Pop Idols make what they make and nobody pays them. They are pure ‘commission’ based pay or such. > [@](#): > > All are valuable jobs and surely a fireman is worth at least the same? Here again the appeal to the ‘worth’ inherent in a job and a link to salary. It really does appear that your philosophy is that the more someone makes, the more important he is. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/26 "2002-11-13T21:04:49Z")
HARLOW, England (AP) - Britain’s firefighters walked off their jobs Wednesday in their first nationwide strike in a quarter-century, demanding a 40 percent pay raise to salaries they say are barely enough to live on. About 50,000 firefighters began a 48-hour strike at 6 p.m. They threatened three eight-day strikes in November and December if the government does not meet their terms . . . “Make no mistake, someone will die - but we will not be to blame, we have been forced into this,” said Jim Jewell, a senior officer at Harlow Fire Station in southeast England, running his gaze over a row of gleaming fire engines . . . The government and employers have offered pay increases of 11 percent over two years in return for a wholesale restructuring of the service. The Fire Brigades Union says they will accept nothing short of 40 percent, which raises the base salary to $55,000. “There is no government on Earth that could yield to such a claim,” Prime Minister Tony Blair said Wednesday, referring to the pay demand. The union says if its terms are not met, further strikes, each lasting eight days, will follow on Nov. 22 and on Dec. 4 and 16. The average firefighter makes $34,400 for the first 15 years, when he gets a long-service bonus of less than $1,600 a year. A junior officer makes $38,400, the station commander $57,600. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2002, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/27 "2002-11-13T22:18:48Z")
I can see this turning into another Sky bodycount watch. [Ananova: Woman dies in fire as strike gets underway](http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_709095.html?menu=news.latestheadlines). Apparently the picketing firefighters manned the engines to help once the call came in. On a less tragic note, London is a mess tonight. All of the tube stations in my area are closed thanks to the lack of fire service availability. The Waterloo & City line was suspended when drivers refused to work without fire brigade protection. The roads were in a right old state when I left work. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 10:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/28 "2002-11-14T10:31:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Crusoe \* > **I can see this turning into another Sky bodycount watch.** [How prescient](http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30000-1070426,00.html). ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 11:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/29 "2002-11-14T11:05:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by casdave \*Oh, and one more thing, the average pay for a firefighter is average basic pay, add in shift allowances, overtime, specialist grade allowances etc and then work out how much they get, every union dispute uses the lowest, most basic unenhanced pay rates in their publicity, I suggest you take a look at the actual pay slips of firefighters across a group of them over a period of time, you may find that things are not quite so desparate for them as is made out. \*\* Casdave, I’ve heard the same thing from a few people, and remember when I used to know a couple of firemen (one was a woman actually) that they never seemed to have any problems with their salaries. So, the question, what are the real salaries of the average firefighters? The FBU website doesn’t seem to mention shift pay and specialisation pay. ---
**Author:** ![Sir\_Doris](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5ac83/32.png) [@Sir\_Doris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sir_Doris)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/30 "2002-11-14T11:26:02Z")
On a related note, the BBC reported a large number of hoax calls were made. In the Strathclyde region, 239 hoax calls were made as opposed to 20 genuine emergencies. In Tyne and Wear, 50% of calls made were hoaxes. This was in addition to arson plus people taking unnecessary risks - bonfires and the like. The important task of burning rubbish couldn’t wait until the weekend? :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/31 "2002-11-14T11:29:00Z")
I use a bin, me. Saves on the flames and the burning and the … sorry, went a bit Frink there. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/32 "2002-11-14T11:38:13Z")
Anti-fire tips from [http://www.thefridaything.co.uk](http://www.thefridaything.co.uk): > [@](#): > > 1. Prevent chip pan fires by not being working class. > > 2. If the army puts out a fire in your home, observe > military etiquette by ejaculating over any biscuits you may offer them with their mug of tea. After they’ve left, be sure to wash any broom handles. > > 3. Most deaths in house fires are caused not by people > burning to death but by smoke inhalation. So, instead of sitting in a blazing room until the fire has crept right up to your toes, get out of the house instead. > > 4. A major cause of fires is smoking in bed. Avoid smoking > in bed by not being in a very old, very bad joke. (NB. This will also guard against confusion arising from whether your wife is going to Jamaica voluntarily.) > > 5. Never return to a burning building unless itís for > something really important like your coat or handbag. > > 6. Support your local firefighters by clubbing together with local people and buying them a shiny new bell for their fire engine. Ding ding! > > 7. If you’re a character in Eastenders, avoid house fires > and increase dramatic plausibility by no longer associating > on a daily basis with the person who brutally raped you. > (NB. If you’re a villain in Eastenders, terrify viewers by doing an impression of Satan doing an impression of Midge > Ure.) > > 8. If you’re caught in a fire, try to avoid severe facial disfigurement. This will cause you to become evil and eschew reconstructive surgery in favour of wearing a frightening mask at all times. > > 9. Yob children. Don’t expect to see a fire engine if you > make hoax 999 calls this evening. Take a night off from harassing the emergency services and phone some 0800 numbers instead. (You might want to try Learning Direct and get an adult education brochure for something to do when you’re still signing on aged 30.) > > 10. Don’t fight fire with fire. This will just make a bigger fire. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/33 "2002-11-14T13:13:07Z")
I must admit to being a bit perturbed over the contingency planning for this strike. As **owlstretchingtime** points out, the Green Goddesses look bloody old. The reason for this is they _are_ bloody old - they’re the _exact same vehicles_ that were wheeled out for the _last_ firemen’s strike, and they were twenty-five years old then. Now, I’m a believer in building to last, but this is getting a bit silly. There are (according to local news) a total of thirteen of these things covering the whole of Oxfordshire and Buckinghamshire, and they _are_ having trouble coming up with a half-way acceptable response time. Perhaps, once the current situation is settled, the Government could look into providing the Army with more up-to-date fire-fighting vehicles. Given that _Trumpton_ has more up-to-date fire-fighting vehicles, this should not be difficult. ---
**Author:** ![Crusoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/49beb7/32.png) [@Crusoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crusoe)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/34 "2002-11-14T13:17:20Z")
I think the government has enough problems providing the army with up-to-date rifles. Perhaps it would make more sense to train soldiers to use the normal fire-fighting vehicles and equipment. ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_Wright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@Steve\_Wright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_Wright)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/35 "2002-11-14T15:07:22Z")
Would the pickets on the fire stations _let_ them, though? Soldiers crossing picket lines is a situation which would get your average die-hard union militant’s back up, no matter how strong the humanitarian case for it. (And don’t knock the SA80! Provided you don’t expose it to mud, sand, snow, water, excessive cold, excessive heat, or bad language, it will give you many years’ service as an attractive table decoration and conversation piece.) ---
**Author:** ![Andy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/aeb1de/32.png) [@Andy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andy)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/36 "2002-11-14T15:39:53Z")
Steve, add to that list insect repellant. It dissolves the plastic barrell housing. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/37 "2002-11-14T15:58:45Z")
[Prescott pledges to protect public](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/2477249.stm) The title of this story puts on image of Prescott taking his jacket off, twating a few strikers while saying “Get back to work ya bastards” ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/38 "2002-11-14T15:59:56Z")
into my mind ---
**Author:** ![everton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ecb155/32.png) [@everton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/everton)\ **Post date:** [November 14, 2002, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/39 "2002-11-14T22:37:32Z")
Whatever the rights and wrongs of this dispute, this story has to posted, from the “you couldn’t make it up” files… [Army fights fireworks blaze](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/2477989.stm) ---
**Author:** ![Demekin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/dfb087/32.png) [@Demekin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Demekin)\ **Post date:** [November 15, 2002, 8:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453/40 "2002-11-15T08:37:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Fenris \* > \*\*But I’ve heard this too, and the stuff I’ve heard is that the firefighters were offered an 11% raise, got huffy and said that 11% was an insult, demanded 40% and walked. > > Given that I’m lucky to get a 4% raise, my sympathies are not with them.\*\* As far as I know, that’s 11% over two years, which works out to a little over 5% per year. Not much more than your raise. If the whole point of the strike is that firemen’s salaries have unfairly fallen behind those of other similar professions over the past 25 years, a 5% annual increase wouldn’t do much to rectify that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/crikey-british-firefighters-on-strike/136453.md?page=3)