# Criminal Court Procedure in Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337 "2015-01-08T19:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/1 "2015-01-08T19:18:30Z")
Let us start by the final court of appeal in Scottish Criminal cases. Steophan erroneously holds that there is a criminal appeal process from the Scottish courts to the Supreme Court. I maintain that the Supreme Court is the final court of appeal for Scottish Civil and Administrative Law, but that the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over Criminal trials- and that one cannot appeal to the Supreme Court on a matter of verdict or sentence from the Court system in Scotland. The Supreme Court only trumps Scottish Law over Administrative and Civil matters. Otherwise the High Court of the Justiciary is the final criminal appeal court in Scotland and the Supreme Court in London cannot here purely criminal appeals. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/2 "2015-01-08T19:29:13Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Steophan erroneously holds that there is a criminal appeal process from the Scottish courts to the Supreme Court. I said nothing of the sort. I said that the Supreme Court is the highest court in the land, and clarified later that it is the joint highest with the Scottish equivalent. You are inventing an argument I never made to defeat, to make your argument look better. There’s a name for that tactic, but it escapes me at the moment… ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/3 "2015-01-08T19:41:17Z")
Is there some reason this is a separate thread? Justify it quick or I’m locking it. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/4 "2015-01-08T19:47:21Z")
We were told not to continue in the original thread. We agreed to start a new one. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/5 "2015-01-08T19:50:01Z")
Specifically,[this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=18034332&postcount=854) by **tomndebb**. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/6 "2015-01-08T19:51:18Z")
Huh. Well, I wouldn’t take that as Tom encouraging you to start this thread, rather just to knock it off in that one. But I’ll let this stand for the moment. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/7 "2015-01-08T19:54:11Z")
My original position was that I predicted that you believed “The Highest Criminal Court in Britain used to be the House of Lords and is now the Supreme Court.” You replied “Entirely true.” The Highest Criminal Courts in Britain are the Supreme Court for England, NI and Wales and the High Court of Judiciary for Scotland. There is no criminal appeal from the High Court of the Judiciary to the Supreme court on criminal verdicts or sentences. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/8 "2015-01-08T19:56:30Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > My original position was that I predicted that you believed > > “The Highest Criminal Court in Britain used to be the House of Lords and is now the Supreme Court.” > > You replied > > “Entirely true.” > > The Highest Criminal Courts in Britain are the Supreme Court for England, NI and Wales and the High Court of Judiciary for Scotland. > > There is no criminal appeal from the High Court of the Judiciary to the Supreme court on criminal verdicts or sentences. Yes, I know. That’s what I said. Or are you maintaining that the High Court of the Judiciary is higher than the Supreme Court? If so, cite it and I’ll accept that I was wrong. Otherwise it remains entirely true of both the Supreme Court and the High Court of the Judiciary (thanks for reminding me of the name) that they are the highest court in the UK. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/9 "2015-01-08T20:01:38Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes, I know. That’s what I said. Or are you maintaining that the High Court of the Judiciary is higher than the Supreme Court? If so, cite it and I’ll accept that I was wrong. Otherwise it remains entirely true of both the Supreme Court and the High Court of the Judiciary (thanks for reminding me of the name) that they are the highest court in the UK. You are wriggling. The high Court of Judiciary is at the same level of Criminal justice for Scotland as the Supreme Court is for England. The original statement is false or at least incomplete. It would be correct to say that the Highest Criminal Courts in the UK are the High Court of Judiciary for Scottish Cases and the Supreme Court for the rest of the UK. Both are at the same level for Criminal Law and there is no appeal on criminal verdicts or sentences from one to the other. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/10 "2015-01-08T20:03:53Z")
There are a limited set of circumstances where the Supreme Court can be appealed to in Scots criminal cases - my limited understanding is that this mechanism is just used to clarify points of law, specifically around devolved powers, and once decided the case reverts back to the High Court of Judiciary. This pdf from the Supreme Court website gives full details [https://www.supremecourt.uk/docs/jurisdiction-of-the-supreme-court-in-scottish-appeals.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.uk/docs/jurisdiction-of-the-supreme-court-in-scottish-appeals.pdf) This paragraph gives an idea of how common such appeals are > [@](#): > > In the period between devolution in 1999 and 21 April 2013, a total of 36 Scottish criminal cases raising devolution issues have gone to a full hearing before the JCPC/Supreme Court. > > Of those, 18 were appeals with the leave of the High Court of Justiciary, 10 were appeals with leave given by the Supreme Court/JCPC, and 8 were references by the High Court of Justiciary or by a Law Officer. In 5 of the 10 cases where leave was given by the JCPC/Supreme Court, the appeal was refused. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/11 "2015-01-08T20:08:32Z")
This case may be of interest > **[Cadder v HM Advocate](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadder_v_HM_Advocate)** > > Cadder v HM Advocate UKSC 43 (26 October 2010) is a decision in which the Supreme Court of the United Kingdom held that the way in which police in Scotland detained suspects was not compatible with the European Convention on Human Rights and was therefore unlawful in terms of the Scotland Act 1998. > Peter Cadder was convicted at Glasgow Sheriff Court of assault and breach of the peace on 29 May 2009, following an incident in May 2007, at which time he was a minor. > Cadder had been detained und... It’s the one that changed the rights of access to a solicitor in Scottish police custody (via appeal to the Supreme Court), which I think was brought up in the other thread. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/12 "2015-01-08T20:11:35Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > There are a limited set of circumstances where the Supreme Court can be appealed to in Scots criminal cases - my limited understanding is that this mechanism is just used to clarify points of law, specifically around devolved powers, and once decided the case reverts back to the High Court of Judiciary. > > This pdf from the Supreme Court website gives full details [https://www.supremecourt.uk/docs/jurisdiction-of-the-supreme-court-in-scottish-appeals.pdf](https://www.supremecourt.uk/docs/jurisdiction-of-the-supreme-court-in-scottish-appeals.pdf) > > This paragraph gives an idea of how common such appeals are Agreed. I used language carefully. I said that verdicts and sentences were not appealable. Appeals on administrative issues are of course settled by the Supreme Court especially when about external matters such as treaties. But decisions by the Supreme court do not affect the verdicts but require a change in the law if necessary and subsequent quashing or retrial as with several recent cases. It is similar to the relationship of the Supreme Court to the ECHR where a contrary verdict does not change the law or any verdicts or sentences but requires administrative or legislative action. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/13 "2015-01-08T20:13:45Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > This case may be of interest > > [Cadder v HM Advocate - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cadder_v_HM_Advocate) > > It’s the one that changed the rights of access to a solicitor in Scottish police custody (via appeal to the Supreme Court), which I think was brought up in the other thread. That is the one I was referring to. The verdict did not automatically overturn convictions gained in a way made illegal by the Supreme Court’s judgement but required administrative and legislative action. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/14 "2015-01-08T20:19:01Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > You are wriggling. You can hardly complain about someone providing incomplete or misleading information. I am, and have been for as I can remember, fully aware that the criminal justice system in Scotland is separate, and when the Supreme Court was formed it was made clear to anyone who followed it that it would have limited jurisdiction in Scotland. I have never claimed otherwise, I have never believed otherwise, and your claims that I have done so are false. I genuinely have no idea what you are so upset about here. Is it simply that a TV programme discussing the whole of Britain gave entirely correct, but incomplete, information? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/15 "2015-01-08T20:28:39Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You can hardly complain about someone providing incomplete or misleading information. I am, and have been for as I can remember, fully aware that the criminal justice system in Scotland is separate, and when the Supreme Court was formed it was made clear to anyone who followed it that it would have limited jurisdiction in Scotland. > > I have never claimed otherwise, I have never believed otherwise, and your claims that I have done so are false. > > I genuinely have no idea what you are so upset about here. Is it simply that a TV programme discussing the whole of Britain gave entirely correct, but incomplete, information? Do you agree that there is no appeal on verdicts or sentence in Criminal matters from the High Court of Judiciary to the Supreme Court and that consequently the Supreme Court plays no part in the Criminal trial process in Scotland? Therefore the Supreme Court is not the sole highest Criminal Court in the UK? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/16 "2015-01-08T20:48:46Z")
It’s gone very quiet. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/17 "2015-01-08T21:00:23Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It’s gone very quiet. Not everyone is obsessively hitting the refresh key like a crack monkey. I really don’t get why you think this will be some glorious victory if Steophan concedes this point. Total sidetrack. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/18 "2015-01-08T21:19:07Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It’s gone very quiet. 20 minutes passed. You win! ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/19 "2015-01-08T21:31:02Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Do you agree that there is no appeal on verdicts or sentence in Criminal matters from the High Court of Judiciary to the Supreme Court and that consequently the Supreme Court plays no part in the Criminal trial process in Scotland? Therefore the Supreme Court is not the sole highest Criminal Court in the UK? Yes, of course I agree with that. That’s why I’ve said as much in several posts… Do you acknowledge that there is no court in the UK that can overrule the Supreme Court, and therefore it is joint highest court in the land? If not, please explain why not, with cites. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2015, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/20 "2015-01-08T21:32:52Z")
> [@CarnalK](#): > > Not everyone is obsessively hitting the refresh key like a crack monkey. I really don’t get why you think this will be some glorious victory if Steophan concedes this point. Total sidetrack. I am quite happy to “concede” a point that I not only never denied, but actively have stated in several posts… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337.md?page=2)