# Criminal Court Procedure in Scotland **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 8, 2015, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337 "2015-01-08T19:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/81 "2015-02-14T19:00:45Z")
I will add one further challenge. Make a list of ALL cases where the Supreme Court has considered Scottish Criminal Law cases since its inception. Exclude those that were about devolution or ECHR cases. List them. I can find…ZERO. Maybe you can do better. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 7:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/82 "2015-02-14T19:04:01Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I will add one further challenge. > > Make a list of ALL cases where the Supreme Court has considered Scottish Criminal Law cases since its inception. Exclude those that were about devolution or ECHR cases. > > List them. > > I can find…ZERO. > > Maybe you can do better. Why would I? I wouldn’t expect to find any, but if I did it would have no bearing on the issue at hand. Why do you keep trying to challenge me where I agree with you, rather than answering the one, simple, question that is relevant here? What court do you maintain is higher than the SC? If you are claiming there is such a court, name it. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/83 "2015-02-14T19:13:35Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I will add one further challenge. > > Make a list of ALL cases where the Supreme Court has considered Scottish Criminal Law cases since its inception. Exclude those that were about devolution or ECHR cases. > > List them. > > I can find…ZERO. > > Maybe you can do better. :rolleyes: Dear God in heaven. That’s like saying you can find zero human being who have gone to space, if you ignore the astronauts. One hell of an accomplishment, finding zero cases before a Court, when the subject matter is one which that Court does not have juridiction to hear. By the way, the UKSC is not different from Scottish courts. It is a Scottish Court. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/84 "2015-02-14T19:20:06Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Make a list of ALL cases where the Supreme Court has considered Scottish Criminal Law cases since its inception. Exclude those that were about devolution or ECHR cases. Since the ECHR tends to give more protection to the accused than Scottish or English law, aren’t most criminal appeals to the Supreme Court going to be about ECHR violations? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/85 "2015-02-14T19:33:29Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I would point out that the very concept of British Law is an oddity. That’s just nonsense. Any statue of the British Parliament which applies throughout the United Kingdom is British law. And again, **AK84** is trained and qualified to practise law in the UK. I think that gives his posts considerably more weight than your cut-and-pastes from various websites. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/86 "2015-02-14T20:08:06Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > :rolleyes: > Dear God in heaven. That’s like saying it is you can find zero human being who have gone to space, if you ignore the astronauts. One hell of an accomplishment, finding zero cases before a Court, when the subject matter is one which that Court does not have juridiction to hear. > > By the way, the UKSC is not different from Scottish courts. It is a Scottish Court. It is a Scottish Civil and Administrative court but it is not (per its website) a Scottish Criminal Court. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/87 "2015-02-14T20:10:22Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > That’s just nonsense. Any statue of the British Parliament which applies throughout the United Kingdom is British law. > > And again, **AK84** is trained and qualified to practise law in the UK. I think that gives his posts considerably more weight than your cut-and-pastes from various websites. There is an advantage of actually living in the jurisdiction and knowing what is taught in schools and appears in the media bout the Scottish system. The news NEVER has coverage of criminal cases being considered by the Supreme Court. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/88 "2015-02-14T20:10:41Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > It is a Scottish Civil and Administrative court but it is not (per its website) a Scottish Criminal Court. Yes. We all know that. Why do you keep pretending otherwise, and ignoring the actual question that started all this? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/89 "2015-02-14T20:12:33Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Since the ECHR tends to give more protection to the accused than Scottish or English law, aren’t most criminal appeals to the Supreme Court going to be about ECHR violations? All appeals regarding Scottish criminal administration will be about devolution or ECHR matters as that is the ONLY remit of the SC re the Criminal Law in Scotland. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/90 "2015-02-14T20:16:24Z")
The questions people are ignoring are Why does the SC website say that it is not the final appeal court for Scottish criminal law Where are all such cases supposedly appealed to the SC Does anyone have an example of a single criminal appeal where sentence or verdict was overturned. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/91 "2015-02-14T20:18:07Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Yes. We all know that. Why do you keep pretending otherwise, and ignoring the actual question that started all this? The actual question was "Criminal Court Procedure in Scotland * * * Let us start by the final court of appeal in Scottish Criminal cases. Steophan erroneously holds that there is a criminal appeal process from the Scottish courts to the Supreme Court. I maintain that the Supreme Court is the final court of appeal for Scottish Civil and Administrative Law, but that the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over Criminal trials- and that one cannot appeal to the Supreme Court on a matter of verdict or sentence from the Court system in Scotland. The Supreme Court only trumps Scottish Law over Administrative and Civil matters. Otherwise the High Court of the Justiciary is the final criminal appeal court in Scotland and the Supreme Court in London cannot hear purely criminal appeals." ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/92 "2015-02-14T20:21:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The actual question was > > "Criminal Court Procedure in Scotland > > * * * > > Let us start by the final court of appeal in Scottish Criminal cases. Steophan erroneously holds that there is a criminal appeal process from the Scottish courts to the Supreme Court. > > I maintain that the Supreme Court is the final court of appeal for Scottish Civil and Administrative Law, but that the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over Criminal trials- and that one cannot appeal to the Supreme Court on a matter of verdict or sentence from the Court system in Scotland. > > The Supreme Court only trumps Scottish Law over Administrative and Civil matters. Otherwise the High Court of the Justiciary is the final criminal appeal court in Scotland and the Supreme Court in London cannot hear purely criminal appeals." You were wrong from the start that I held that position. I’ve made that clear in the previous thread, and this one. We have no disagreement about the nature and jurisdiction of Scottish criminal courts, except for your continued claim that one of them (which you refuse to name) can overturn Supreme Court judgements that would otherwise bind the Scottish Government. My claim is, and remains, that the Supreme Court is the highest court in the UK. I am asking you either concede that point, or name a higher court. ---
**Author:** ![Baron\_Greenback](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baron_greenback/32/48_2.png) [@Baron\_Greenback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baron_Greenback)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/93 "2015-02-14T20:22:12Z")
That was a quick month. Pjen, no-one in this thread disagrees with your original point. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/94 "2015-02-14T20:23:17Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > You were wrong from the start that I held that position. I’ve made that clear in the previous thread, and this one. We have no disagreement about the nature and jurisdiction of Scottish criminal courts, except for your continued claim that one of them (which you refuse to name) can overturn Supreme Court judgements that would otherwise bind the Scottish Government. > > My claim is, and remains, that the Supreme Court is the highest court in the UK. I am asking you either concede that point, or name a higher court. Read the OP. Why does the SC website say that it is not the court of final appeal for Scottish criminal law. Answer please. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/95 "2015-02-14T20:24:26Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > The questions people are ignoring are > > Why does the SC website say that it is not the final appeal court for Scottish criminal law > > Where are all such cases supposedly appealed to the SC > > Does anyone have an example of a single criminal appeal where sentence or verdict was overturned. No-one is ignoring those questions. The SC is not the final appeal court for Scottish law, no-one has said it is, and no-one would expect to find such cases. The Supreme Court has jurisdiction at a higher level than the criminal courts, in that it can compel the Government of Scotland to change the law if that law is illegal, and my claim is there is no further court in the UK to which those judgements can be appealed. At no point have I been talking about the Scottish criminal justice system. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/96 "2015-02-14T20:25:28Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > Read the OP. > > Why does the SC website say that it is not the court of final appeal for Scottish criminal law. > > Answer please. Because, for the umpteenth time, it isn’t. No-one has disputed that. ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/97 "2015-02-14T20:28:30Z")
> [@Baron\_Greenback](#): > > That was a quick month. > > Pjen, no-one in this thread disagrees with your original point. If people agree that the SC has no standing in Scottish criminal law, then that is what the OP said. Does everyone agree that the SC has no standing in Scottish Criminal law as per the statement on its website. "The Supreme Court acts as the highest court for civil appeals from the Court of Session in Scotland. The highest court for criminal appeals however remains as the Court of Appeal in Scotland. Do we all agree with that statement on the SC website? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/98 "2015-02-14T20:30:36Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > If people agree that the SC has no standing in Scottish criminal law, then that is what the OP said. Does everyone agree that the SC has no standing in Scottish Criminal law as per the statement on its website. > > "The Supreme Court acts as the highest court for civil appeals from the Court of Session in Scotland. The highest court for criminal appeals however remains as the Court of Appeal in Scotland. > > Do we all agree with that statement on the SC website? Why don’t you attempt to answer my question, and tell me what court you think can hear appeals against the Supreme Court’s judgements? Or are you willing yet to concede that the SC is, in fact, the highest court in the UK, contrary to your earlier claim? ---
**Author:** ![Pjen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Pjen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pjen)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/99 "2015-02-14T20:30:50Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Because, for the umpteenth time, it isn’t. > > No-one has disputed that. I repeat the OP "I maintain that the Supreme Court is the final court of appeal for Scottish Civil and Administrative Law, but that the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over Criminal trials- and that one cannot appeal to the Supreme Court on a matter of verdict or sentence from the Court system in Scotland. The Supreme Court only trumps Scottish Law over Administrative and Civil matters. Otherwise the High Court of the Justiciary is the final criminal appeal court in Scotland and the Supreme Court in London cannot hear purely criminal appeals." Do you agree with that? ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [February 14, 2015, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337/100 "2015-02-14T20:32:24Z")
> [@Pjen](#): > > I repeat the OP > > "I maintain that the Supreme Court is the final court of appeal for Scottish Civil and Administrative Law, but that the Supreme Court has no jurisdiction over Criminal trials- and that one cannot appeal to the Supreme Court on a matter of verdict or sentence from the Court system in Scotland. > > The Supreme Court only trumps Scottish Law over Administrative and Civil matters. Otherwise the High Court of the Justiciary is the final criminal appeal court in Scotland and the Supreme Court in London cannot hear purely criminal appeals." > > Do you agree with that? Why do you keep asking me the same question that I’ve just answered? Yes, I agree with it. Now, please, finally, tell me which court you consider to be higher to the Supreme Court, that can overturn its judgements. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-court-procedure-in-scotland/709337.md?page=6)