# Criminal Law: You've violated your bail..go to jail or plead guilty **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [April 30, 2019, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274 "2019-04-30T19:16:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/21 "2019-05-01T03:24:42Z")
Do you not have a presumption of liberty/release in your criminal law, **Ultra Vires**? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/22 "2019-05-01T03:42:06Z")
The public has a right to be protected from people who attack other people, and to see them brought to justice. This guy hasn’t yet been found guilty, so it is good to have a system that provides a way for him to remain free until his trial, but he might reasonably be one of those people whom society needs to be protected from, so that way for him to be free should also contain provisions for that. Bail with conditions accomplishes that. If he can’t meet those conditions, well, then that’s his problem. I see no injustice here. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/23 "2019-05-01T04:45:44Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > Why did you post the question if you were just going to get agitated when people didn’t answer the way you wanted them to? I’m not agitated so much as people are missing the point. > [@raventhief](#): > > He \*volunteered \*- would you prefer “agreed” ? to NOT go to jail in exchange for a few key things: the bond money and a couple of conditions. His choice, had he not volunteered - or if you would prefer, \*agreed \*- was to sit in jail until trial. > So he agreed to avoid jail until the trial, and he forfeited that by failing to uphold his part of the bargain. > > ETA you seem to be arguing that it is coercive to hold him to the agreement that he voluntarily made, or to offer another option (the plea) . There was no "agree[ment] or “voluntary” deal. He wanted to stay out of jail. He was told to do this. > [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > Now this coercion to plead down is something else. You get it at all levels and IMO it sucks. It is an erosion of the presumption of innocence. This! Finally! Someone sees my point! > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Do you not have a presumption of liberty/release in your criminal law, **Ultra Vires**? Not expressed in that way. We have a statute that states that so long as a person is not charged with a crime that can carry life imprisonment (no death penalty in West Virginia) the person is entitled to “reasonable” bail. Now, the bail can be set at an amount that nobody in the entire courthouse could post, but that is a different issue. I am talking about a really reasonable bond that a person has indeed posted. But in recent years judges like to add these conditions…no booze, no contact with the victims, no arrests on another crime, no being out past 10pm, no association with convicted felons, no being present in a place where alcohol is served for consumption on the premises, or no jerking off (okay I made up the last one). So, it is easy to see that people might violate the conditions of their bail and be imprisoned until trial. Every poster in this thread seems to say fuck 'em, they deserve it. And I’m not excusing a violation of a known bail condition. The reasonableness of these conditions are for a different argument. I am just talking about a regime where the State says, in essence, we have no problem with this person remaining free, now and forever, so long as he PLEADS GUILTY and we get our pound of flesh. However, if he insists on trying to prove he is innocent, then we will incarcerate him for months. The dichotomy has nothing to do with whether he violated the terms of bail. He will be free notwithstanding his violation of the bail conditions so long as the State gets what it thinks it is due. What they argue in the (hypothetical) bail revocation hearing is belied by their argument at the (most likely) plea hearing. The dangers that they profess the defendant will be on society is unethical in the bail hearing, IMHO, because they state the opposite simply because he pleads how they want. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/24 "2019-05-01T04:52:08Z")
He voluntarily agreed to the conditions of bail. If he didn’t agree, he could have stayed in jail until trial. Just because the other choice sucks doesn’t mean he didn’t make a choice. The system was not saying that ", we have no problem with this person remaining free, now and forever, so long as he PLEADS GUILTY and we get our pound of flesh. However, if he insists on trying to prove he is innocent, then we will incarcerate him for months." They said we have no problem with this person remaining free, as long as he plays by the rules he agreed to. If he fucks that up, then he’ll go back to jail, or take a plea." Does the system need reform? Yes, but not for the reasons you’re arguing. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 10:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/25 "2019-05-01T10:53:57Z")
Did his attorney explain the importance of complying with the specifics of his bail? If not, I think maybe he has grounds to argue that he has suffered due to ineffective counsel. ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/26 "2019-05-01T12:00:01Z")
> [@Ace309](#): > > Why did you post the question if you were just going to get agitated when people didn’t answer the way you wanted them to? > [@UltraVires](#): > > I’m not agitated so much as people are missing the point. A point that you don’t seem to be addressing is that, as has been pointed out, violating bail is another crime on top of the misdemeanor battery charge that you stipulate he he’s a strong defense against. Are you stipulating that he also has an excellent defense against that charge? ---
**Author:** ![StGermain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stgermain/32/2868_2.png) [@StGermain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StGermain)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/27 "2019-05-01T14:43:02Z")
**UltraVires** - Under your “innocent until proven guilty = no restrictions” theory, we shouldn’t require bail. Why should they post bail if they’re innocent? And there’d be no restrictions on rapists harassing their victims, or child molesters continuing to teach school or serial killers or bombers or whatever. StG ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/28 "2019-05-01T14:50:50Z")
I wouldn’t try to pretend here, you should go hire a lawyer UV. Why take the risk? They’ll (hopefully) know the laws of your area. ---
**Author:** ![Ace309](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ace309/32/1050_2.png) [@Ace309](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ace309)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/29 "2019-05-01T15:26:26Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > I wouldn’t try to pretend here, you should go hire a lawyer UV. Why take the risk? They’ll (hopefully) know the laws of your area. At the risk of a whoosh, **UV** is a practicing attorney. I interpreted his post, possibly incorrectly, as a hypothetical constructed around one of his clients. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/30 "2019-05-01T15:27:44Z")
I’m not sure which part is to be considered unethical- additional conditions on bail, violation of said conditions resulting in forfeiture, or the offer of a plea deal when bail is forfeited. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/31 "2019-05-01T16:20:52Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If he takes the plea, then the second after, he can drink booze or text Doe. > [@UltraVires](#): > > There is no crime of drinking or contacting Doe If there’s an order of protection (or whatever it’s called in that state) forbidding him from contacting Doe, then I’m pretty sure that doing so is indeed a crime. If such an order continues after he takes a plea, then no, he can’t text Doe as soon as he does so. There’s no crime of driving a car down the road, either – unless you’ve had your license taken away (say, for reckless driving, or driving drunk.) Plenty of things are crimes under some circumstances and not others. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/32 "2019-05-01T16:43:50Z")
I could see this being unethical in some cases. Say the prosecutor pushes for really strict bail conditions and then makes sure to keep an eye on the defendant for violations. IMHO, “no drinking until the trial is done” is overly strict in most cases it’s applied. Even in this situation, I think “don’t go to drinking establishments” would have been more proper. But regardless, “no contacting his victim” is pretty damn reasonable and I see no moral reason not to hold the accused accountable for that breech. And frankly, I wonder what your full opinion is UltraVires. Are you actually saying that violating bond conditions shouldn’t be grounds for revoking the bond agreement? Or maybe you think the ethical decision is to put him in jail without any new plea negotiations? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/33 "2019-05-01T18:21:01Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > I’m not sure which part is to be considered unethical- additional conditions on bail, violation of said conditions resulting in forfeiture, or the offer of a plea deal when bail is forfeited. The unethical part is that the punishment for pleading guilty pre-trial is less severe (by a wide margin) than the punishment for being found not-guilty at trial. There is something profoundly wrong about that scenario, and I have no doubt that it happens all the time. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/34 "2019-05-01T18:33:47Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > . To me that is terribly unethical and violates a persons right to trial. > > Thoughts? As a matter of interest, as I remember (IANAL), in Aus it’s not just unethical, it’s kinda illegal. The prosecutor can offer the accused the same kind of deal that the judge can: a lesser sentence for pleading guilty. And can choose not to prosecute. But can’t usurp the function of the courts. And has no control over the court schedule: the prosecution or defence can ask for a delay, but ordinarily have no way to bring on cases early. In my state, they’ve gone tough on bail breaking, for political reasons, so you might go to jail and have to wait for your court case. I think that a late guilty plea here (vic.aus) probably won’t influence your court date if that is already set. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/35 "2019-05-01T18:51:16Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > The unethical part is that the punishment for pleading guilty pre-trial is less severe (by a wide margin) than the punishment for being found not-guilty at trial. > > There is something profoundly wrong about that scenario, and I have no doubt that it happens all the time. The punishment for being found not-guilty is nothing. So limited jail time is not “less severe” than being acquitted. If you mean pleading out results in a less severe punishment than being found guilty- that’s the way it’s supposed to work, right? Guilty verification- heaviest punishment Plea agreement - less heavy Not guilty - no punishment. If you’re saying it’s unethical that a plea agreement would result in a more severe punishment than being found guilty, then yes. That’s an issue, to say the least. If it’s that breaking bond conditions results in the same scenario of not making bond at all (sitting in jail until trial) - then I don’t think it’s unethical to enforce the terms of the bond the accused agreed to (which I asked earlier- if the accused had not been able to make bond, what would have happened?) ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/36 "2019-05-01T19:01:02Z")
For what it’s worth, I generally see the offer as coercive and antithetical to the larger cause of justice: it’s serving the larger cause of the prosecutor getting convictions. In either case, the accused is likely to lose his job and substantial prospects for future employment _even if he could be found not guilty of the original crime._ In a perfect world, the matters would be disentangled: he should have his trial if he wants it on the assault charge, and then a separate proceeding on violating the terms of bail. But to use one as leverage to make him take a plea he does not believe in is pretty low. FTR, I think a couple years ago I would have answered like most of the others, basically “fuck criminals.” Having heard a lot more about how people accused of crimes get totally railroaded, and have really no chance whatsoever of making their case for innocence (whether because of these tactics, or the cost of lawyers, etc) my mind has changed a lot. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/37 "2019-05-01T19:09:34Z")
I’m not saying “fuck criminals.” I do think the bond system is heavily flawed. But my sympathy lies more with the guy who can’t bond out because he’s broke, rather than the guy who said here’s my bond, I promise to not drink and not contact the alleged victim- oops, got drunk and texted that guy. Can plea agreements be coercive and unjust? Hell yeah. Can bond conditions be unfair? Probably. Do I think the prosecutor is behaving unethically by revoking the bond of someone who broke his bond? Having a harder time with that. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/38 "2019-05-01T19:09:42Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > The punishment for being found not-guilty is nothing. So limited jail time is not “less severe” than being acquitted. The offer here is plead guilty today and get a figurative slap on the wrist today, or reject the plea today and spend months in jail awaiting trial for the opportunity to “avoid punishment” by being found not-guilty. > [@](#): > > If you’re saying it’s unethical that a plea agreement would result in a more severe punishment than being found guilty, then yes. That’s an issue, to say the least. If it’s that breaking bond conditions results in the same scenario of not making bond at all (sitting in jail until trial) - then I don’t think it’s unethical to enforce the terms of the bond the accused agreed to (which I asked earlier- if the accused had not been able to make bond, what would have happened?) What would have happened? He’d have been given the same offer, plead guilty today and get a figurative slap on the wrist today, or reject the plea today and spend months in jail awaiting trial for the opportunity to “avoid punishment” by being found not-guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/39 "2019-05-01T19:13:54Z")
Really the only difference between the OPs accused and the guy who’s broke is that OP’s guy blew his chance to stay free while rejecting the plea. I can understand not having empathy for the guy, but people shouldn’t spend months in jail simply for being stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2019, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274/40 "2019-05-01T19:44:36Z")
> [@raventhief](#): > > Can plea agreements be coercive and unjust? Hell yeah. I disagree. I have no problem with plea offers that are attractive and just. I find the idea that the justice system should “hell yeah” embrace outcomes that, as you say, are unjust to be a profound strike against the idea that we are a free nation. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-law-youve-violated-your-bail-go-to-jail-or-plead-guilty/833274.md?page=3)