# Criminal legal question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [April 4, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830 "2015-04-04T20:35:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 8:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/1 "2015-04-04T20:35:02Z")
I know that in some cases just planning a crime is in itself a crime. For example if I plan to bomb a school that is a crime even if I go nowhere near the school. I assume this is not true for all crimes? If I plan to shoplift a pair of jeans at the mall will they arrest me for that ? ---
**Author:** ![jezzaOZ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/a9a28c/32.png) [@jezzaOZ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jezzaOZ)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/2 "2015-04-04T20:49:48Z")
I can’t talk about all jurisdictions, but generally they have specific legislation about some crimes where planning is an offence. Usually those crimes are terrorism related. In my jurisdiction encouraging other people to go overseas and fight in a war or actually doing so is an offence. In particular Australians can go to jail for 20 years for fighting against ISIS in Iraq or Syria. They can also go to jail for 20 years for encouraging people to fight for ISIS or actually doing so. ---
**Author:** ![Rained](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5e9695/32.png) [@Rained](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rained)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/3 "2015-04-04T20:52:55Z")
It is illegal to plan any sort of crime. It’s called committing conspiracy. Which is punishable just as much as the crime you are planning to commit. Don’t do it. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/4 "2015-04-04T21:02:48Z")
Do the cops arrest people for planning to jaywalk? ---
**Author:** ![Cayuga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@Cayuga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cayuga)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 9:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/5 "2015-04-04T21:27:04Z")
> [@Rained](#): > > It is illegal to plan any sort of crime. It’s called committing conspiracy. Which is punishable just as much as the crime you are planning to commit. Don’t do it. It’s only conspiracy if you … well … conspire — i.e., plan it with someone else. The OP asked, “If I plan to shoplift a pair of jeans at the mall will they arrest me for that?” If s/he was planning the shoplifting by him/herself, there’s no conspiracy. ---
**Author:** ![Rained](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5e9695/32.png) [@Rained](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rained)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/6 "2015-04-04T21:29:58Z")
> [@Cayuga](#): > > It’s only conspiracy if you … well … conspire — i.e., plan it with someone else. > > The OP asked, “If I plan to shoplift a pair of jeans at the mall will they arrest me for that?” > > If s/he was planning the shoplifting by him/herself, there’s no conspiracy. This is correct. You would be soliciting. Thanks for the correction. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/7 "2015-04-05T02:18:05Z")
Well, even from the most U.S.-centric perspective, there’s at least 51 different legal systems (50 states and federal. And there’s tribal law. And the Uniform Code of Military Justice is a substantially self-contained sub-set of the U.S. Code in general…) In my state (Georgia), attempt, solicitation, and conspiracy are all broadly defined and not at all specific to terrorism or even necessarily to “major” or “important” crimes: > [@](#): > > A person commits the offense of criminal attempt when, with intent to commit a specific crime, he performs any act which constitutes a substantial step toward the commission of that crime. Official Code of Georgia 16-4-1 > [@](#): > > A person commits the offense of criminal solicitation when, with intent that another person engage in conduct constituting a felony, he solicits, requests, commands, importunes, or otherwise attempts to cause the other person to engage in such conduct. O.C.G. 16-4-7 > [@](#): > > A person commits the offense of conspiracy to commit a crime when he together with one or more persons conspires to commit any crime and any one or more of such persons does any overt act to effect the object of the conspiracy. O.C.G. 16-4-8 So, you can’t solicit someone to commit a misdemeanor\* (whereas I guess you can attempt to commit or conspire to commit any crime, even a misdemeanor). Realistically, “attempt” is inherently a lot more likely to come up with something like a terrorist attack; or a complex bank heist involving renting space next door to the bank and then spending weeks digging a tunnel from your new basement into the bank vault; or even a straight-up murder. I can imagine “attempted shoplifting” if they nab you with the goods stuffed down your pants but before you actually make it out the door or something like that, but inherently speaking planning to shoplift is not a crime that’s going to leave a lot of evidence; mainly, it’s just some guy _thinking_ “OK, I go in the store; I stuff the merchandise down the front of my pants; and then I walk out, whistling nonchalantly.” You’re probably not going to catch a gang of sophisticated international shoplifters poring over the floor plans of the Walmart and the access codes to the security system. Couple that with shoplifting being a relatively low-priority crime (as opposed to terrorist attacks or major bank heists), and you’re mostly going to get people arrested at the scene; with maybe occasionally someone caught with an entire house full of stolen loot. \*I think there are some separate prostitution-related “solicitation” offenses elsewhere in the code that apply to certain crimes that may only be misdemeanors. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/8 "2015-04-05T04:12:47Z")
I’ve never heard of a situation where merely planning a crime is a crime in and of itself. There are attempt, solicitation, and conspiracy laws (as ME Buckner stated; GA law seems like an accurate reproduction of the common law used in much of the western world). So, if I decide I’m going to rob a bank and go to the store and buy a gun and a ski mask and then come home and decide not to go through with it, I haven’t committed any crime. If I talked to my buddy about it, and we decided to rob the bank, and he went to the store and bought a gun and ski mask and came back and we decided not to go through with it, we would likely both be guilty of conspiracy.\* Don’t get me started on what a “substantial step” means for attempt crimes. It takes about two class periods in 1st year Crim Law class in law school. The answer: We know it when we see it. \*some jurisdictions allow the repudiation of the conspiracy to get you out of the charge; others don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 8:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/9 "2015-04-05T08:01:41Z")
I am a mystery writer. I plan crimes all the time, and then write them down. It is not illegal, or mystery writers would all be criminals. And we do it so openly, too. Sometimes with co-authors (conspiracy!). Now, I have no intent to commit any of these crimes, because crime doesn’t pay (enough). ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 8:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/10 "2015-04-05T08:36:00Z")
> [@jtgain](#): > > I’ve never heard of a situation where merely planning a crime is a crime in and of itself. There are attempt, solicitation, and conspiracy laws (as ME Buckner stated; GA law seems like an accurate reproduction of the common law used in much of the western world). > > So, if I decide I’m going to rob a bank and go to the store and buy a gun and a ski mask and then come home and decide not to go through with it, I haven’t committed any crime. If I talked to my buddy about it, and we decided to rob the bank, and he went to the store and bought a gun and ski mask and came back and we decided not to go through with it, we would likely both be guilty of conspiracy.\* > > Don’t get me started on what a “substantial step” means for attempt crimes. It takes about two class periods in 1st year Crim Law class in law school. The answer: We know it when we see it. > \*some jurisdictions allow the repudiation of the conspiracy to get you out of the charge; others don’t. Terrorist related offences (and ones relating to national security) often have a lower threshold than what Conspiracy had at Common Law. Which is an unfortunate case of things turning full circle, since Common Law Judges had made the test that of substantial preparation as the Crown traditionally defined conspiracy very very broadly. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/11 "2015-04-05T17:55:43Z")
> [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](#): > > I am a mystery writer. I plan crimes all the time, and then write them down. > > It is not illegal, or mystery writers would all be criminals. And we do it so openly, too. Sometimes with co-authors (conspiracy!). > > Now, I have no intent to commit any of these crimes, because crime doesn’t pay (enough). But those “crimes” do not involve real people right? ---
**Author:** ![Donnerwetter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b2d939/32.png) [@Donnerwetter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Donnerwetter)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/12 "2015-04-05T18:06:28Z")
Here’s an interesting case: > [@](#): > > In a stunning reversal, the conviction of so-called “Cannibal Cop” Gilberto Valle in a bizarre plot to cook, rape, kill and eat women was overturned by a federal judge late Monday after he ruled there was insufficient evidence to support it. > Manhattan Judge Paul Gardephe acquitted Valle on the charges stemming from the alleged flesh-eating fetish plot that even targeted his wife. He had faced life in prison on that count after being convicted in March 2013 but could now go free as early as Tuesday. > “The evidentiary record is such that it is more likely than not the case that all of Valle’s Internet communications about kidnapping are fantasy role-play,” Gardephe wrote in his opinion. > **[Cop convicted for planning to cook, rape & eat women has verdict overturned](https://nypost.com/2014/07/01/cannibal-cop-expected-to-be-freed-if-conviction-is-overturned/)** > > In a stunning reversal, the conviction of so-called “Cannibal Cop” Gilberto Valle in a bizarre plot to cook, rape, kill and eat women was overturned by a federal judge late Monday after he ruled th… ---
**Author:** ![Randy\_Seltzer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ee7513/32.png) [@Randy\_Seltzer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Randy_Seltzer)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/13 "2015-04-05T18:50:57Z")
The OP might be interested in the concept of [inchoate crimes](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inchoate_offense). Some things are completely legal if you do them while thinking innocent thoughts, but completely illegal if you do them while thinking mischievous thoughts. My first-year criminal law class was full of hypotheticals like: “In the State of Franklin, it is illegal to purchase images of naked children with prurient intent. Alice buys a picture of a naked baby, intending to use it to decorate her laundry room. Betty buys another copy of the same picture, intending to use it for sexual arousal. Unbeknownst to both women, the baby in question was particularly ugly, so both of their plans were doomed to fail. Both are arrested on their way home from the store before they can set their plans in action. What happens?” ---
**Author:** ![Spoons](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spoons/32/3141_2.png) [@Spoons](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoons)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/14 "2015-04-06T04:32:53Z")
> [@Bijou\_Drains](#): > > If I plan to shoplift a pair of jeans at the mall will they arrest me for that ? Probably not. I’ll speak very generally here, as we’re all in different jurisdictions where laws can differ, but my comments should hold true for most jurisdictions. At any rate, with a few exceptions, every crime requires two elements: the _mens rea_ (guilty mind, or intent) and the _actus reus_ (the guilty act, or committing the crime itself). Thus simply _planning_ to shoplift a pair of jeans (_mens rea_) means nothing if you do not _act_ upon the plan. ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/15 "2015-04-06T05:32:16Z")
Of course, in probably 99% of the “terrorist” crimes the FBI has “found” recently, the FBI or a paid informant basically cooked up a crime for the hard-of-thinking or angry-at-the-world patsy, stepped them through the entire thing and egged them on until they had enough to arrest them. ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/16 "2015-04-06T12:50:00Z")
> [@md2000](#): > > Of course, in probably 99% of the “terrorist” crimes the FBI has “found” recently, the FBI or a paid informant basically cooked up a crime for the hard-of-thinking or angry-at-the-world patsy, stepped them through the entire thing and egged them on until they had enough to arrest them. **Moderator Note** **md2000** , political commentary of this kind is not appropriate for GQ. No warning issued, but don’t do this again. Colibri General Questions Moderator ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [April 6, 2015, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/17 "2015-04-06T15:21:11Z")
Basically **MEBuckner** answered it. The OP is talking about Criminal Attempt. It is written different in each state but in general someone would have to take a substantial step in a course of conduct planned to culminate in his commission of the crime. Without that step there is no attempt. Just thinking about it is not a substantial step. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/18 "2015-04-07T22:19:20Z")
My Westlaw fails me, but in Crim Law class there was a case in which a man was charged with Attempted Murder. The facts are as follows: A man was on the outs with his wife. He goes to a neighbor’s house, already pretty drunk and tells him that he is going to wait outside of his wife’s workplace and kill her when she gets off of work at 3am. Man drives to the store, gets more beer, and drives to wife’s workplace parking lot. He gets there at 11pm. He proceeds to drink more beer to steady his nerves. Police show up at around 2am and our hero is passed out in the driver’s seat. Empty beer cans all around, and a loaded pistol in plain view next to him. He is convicted at the trial court level. On appeal, the Indiana Supreme Court: Reverses his conviction holding that he did not take a “substantial step” towards the attempt but that his acts were “mere preparation.” Other states would likely find differently. I wish I had my cite-fu handy. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/19 "2015-04-07T22:28:04Z")
This is it: [https://scholar.google.com/scholar\_case?case=17009137459269360945&q=attempted+murder+wife&hl=en&as\_sdt=4,15](https://scholar.google.com/scholar_case?case=17009137459269360945&q=attempted+murder+wife&hl=en&as_sdt=4,15) Collier v. State, 846 N.E.2d 340 (Ind. App. 2006) It was an ice pick, box cutter, and binoculars, not a pistol. It’s fairly long, but the majority opinion gives reasons why this is not an attempt, and the dissent gives a good argument as to why it is an attempt. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [April 7, 2015, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830/20 "2015-04-07T23:08:20Z")
Over here we have a crime called “Going equipped to commit a crime” or something like that. If I am caught in a shopping precinct after closing with a crowbar in my pocket, that would be enough. If I was stopped while driving my car and I had a box of tools in the boot - I may have to provide a sensible reason for them being there. If I had four feet of scaffold pipe on the floor beside the driver’s seat, that would likely lead to a charge of carrying an offensive weapon, unless, of course, I was a scaffolding apprentice and it was just homework. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminal-legal-question/716830.md?page=2)