# "Criminalizing Illegal Aliens" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 2, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130 "2006-05-02T18:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/21 "2006-05-03T01:48:26Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > However, I found out today that there’s a big fat Catch-22 that keeps the illegals from ever coming in legally. Our system allows 5,000 legal immigrants from Mexico yearly. Highly educated or highly skilled people get first chance. So, we get 5,000 doctors, engineers and toolmakers. Every Mexican who wants to come here to clean houses, bus tables, or pick tomatoes **has no choice but to enter illegally.** Everybody talks about illegal aliens who come here to do the “jobs Americans won’t do,” but it’s impossible for them to come in legally. Let’s up it to 100,000, 1,000,000 even—after the illegals are gone. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 1:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/22 "2006-05-03T01:56:05Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Dunno why you say this like it’s a good thing, Bob. Unlawful presence _should_ be a felony, and subject to immediate and summary deportation. Good for the Republicans for doing this. Glad to see we still have some fans of due process around here. Because, you know, Homeland Security would never make a mistake or anything. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/23 "2006-05-03T02:17:18Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Glad to see we still have some fans of due process around here. Because, you know, Homeland Security would never make a mistake or anything. What does this have to do with anything? Of course mistakes will be made. That’s true of any law enforcement. Yet, we still think it’s a good idea to create laws and have them enforced. Am I missing your meaning? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/24 "2006-05-03T02:22:07Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What does this have to do with anything? Of course mistakes will be made. That’s true of any law enforcement. Yet, we still think it’s a good idea to create laws and have them enforced. Am I missing your meaning? Probably the use of the word [summary](http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=summary) in **Wierddave** ’s post. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/25 "2006-05-03T02:22:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > What does this have to do with anything? Of course mistakes will be made. That’s true of any law enforcement. Yet, we still think it’s a good idea to create laws and have them enforced. Am I missing your meaning? Part of enforcement is at least \*trying \* not to screw up. The word “summary” implies not even trying. Peronally, having been a part of the deportation infrastructure before, I’ve seen faaaar too many fuckups even when there \* was\* due process. Eva Luna, former Spanish interpreter, U.S. Dept. of Justice, Executive Office for Immigration Review, Office of the Immigration Judge ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/26 "2006-05-03T02:29:32Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Part of enforcement is at least \*trying \* not to screw up. The word “summary” implies not even trying. That is what the word “summary” implies to me, but point taken. My guess is that **Weirddave** meant it the way I took it: quickly and efficiently. It needn’t mean sloppily ir carelessly. But I’ll leave it to him to calrify how he meant it. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/27 "2006-05-03T03:02:31Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Dunno why you say this like it’s a good thing, Bob. Unlawful presence _should_ be a felony, and subject to immediate and summary deportation. Good for the Republicans for doing this. Careful. My fear would be that, for example, someone coming to the US with the proper visa (say a K1, a K3) that REQUIRES adjustment of status (i.e. non-imigrant family visas) could trigger “unlawful presence” if paperwork is not filed within the specific number of days given by the original visa. Currently, this is forgiven at the Adjustment interview. Being “out of status” could quickly become “unlawful presence”, depending on how the lawfolk want to play with words. That would be all sorts of _bad_ for people who delay adjustment… even though their entry into the country was perfectly legal and their reason for being here totally legitimate. Let’s not even get started on the fun we’ve been having with the INS–\>BCIS (+Homeland Security takeover)–\>USCIS transition. The number of errors and mistakes being made is astronomical. I’m quite worried about these illegal aliens getting the really REALLY short end of the stick. Even MORESO for their children who, in many cases, have been here all their lives. Should they be “grandfathered” in? _shrug_ It’s a hot topic on the immigration boards I participate in right now, obviously. Interesting stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/28 "2006-05-03T03:10:03Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Peronally, having been a part of the deportation infrastructure before, I’ve seen faaaar too many fuckups even when there \* was\* due process. You should see the mess it’s in now. Yee-ow. They manage to fuck up simple things, too. If I have to hear about ANOTHER pair of people getting their AOS denied because some fuckwit didn’t enter their change of address properly, or because the interview notice was never sent, I am going to SCREAM. Or HEY! Another great one: girl files EAD/AP/AOS… all is well… you know how everything is supposed to be super security perfect these days? Well! She gets her greencard… and it’s someone else’s picture on it, right info, right fingerprint… myeah! Yay! Let’s not even think about the “paper shredding incident” of the California Service Center in 2003… or the Refugee law suit of the same year… or or or… yeah. I did come across a fascinating (and awful) case recently that I thought might interest you… \Ok - this guy has an illigitimate child with some lady out in South America. Always seen the child, taken care of him, all that fun stuff. Child is a teenager, mother abandons him completely. Father (USC) puts in a family petition for him. I-130 is approved, consulate issues the IV. Child gets to the US (I believe it was LAX, but I could be wrong) - he gets sent to secondary inspection. Boarder inspectors ask for a DNA test to prove paternity (bwaaaah??!) Dad and Child do it, because they have nothing to fear, right? Wrong. Turns out they’re not biologically related. Child gets shipped back home, nothing to do about it. Compassionate system, yes indeed! This is the only father this child has ever known, from birth til now. The hell, I ask you! \ ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/29 "2006-05-03T03:16:42Z")
> [@Elenfair](#): > > You should see the mess it’s in now. Yee-ow. They manage to fuck up simple things, too. Oh, don’t I know it. They’ve completely lost TWO of my H-1B petitions in the past month. Even when I showed them proof of Fedex dellivery, they denied receiving them. For one of them, the filing fee checks had even been cashed. Sigh…I hear paralegals are a shortage profession in Canada… ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/30 "2006-05-03T03:36:21Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > Oh, don’t I know it. They’ve completely lost TWO of my H-1B petitions in the past month. Even when I showed them proof of Fedex dellivery, they denied receiving them. For one of them, the filing fee checks had even been cashed. > > Sigh…I hear paralegals are a shortage profession in Canada… GOTTA love it. No really. Recently, I’ve seen someone respond to the same RFE twice, both times they lost the marriage certificate. Guess what was missing at their interview, too…don’t even get me STARTED on the AR-11s. Those damned things are supposed to be SO GOD DAMNED IMPORTANT THEY CAN KICK YOUR ASS if you don’t send them in within 10 days of moving… and yet, they seem to forget to change the info, or file it at all! I know someone who was smart: they filed the AR-11 with the main office, as instructed. They called the 1-800-misinformation line and supposedly had it changed there too. They also sent a letter to the TWO district offices they had delt with, and one with the K1 issuing consulate. All their bases were covered, right? Wrong! Their interview letter was not sent to the right place (remember the envelopes say DO NOT FORWARD!), they finally found out the case was denied and they were out of the 30 day grace period so they had to file a motion to re-open… GAH! I should shut up now. Carry on with your regularly scheduled pit thread. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/31 "2006-05-03T05:24:16Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That is what the word “summary” implies to me, but point taken. My guess is that **Weirddave** meant it the way I took it: quickly and efficiently. It needn’t mean sloppily ir carelessly. But I’ll leave it to him to calrify how he meant it. That is exactly what I meant. IMO, if you’re illegal, you’re gone. By that I mean really illegal, i.e. jumped the border without even trying to immigrate properly, have a visa that’s far out of date meaning you just stayed when it expired, etc… Paperwork screwups should be allowed for and I have no desire to deport anyone who is properly “in the machine” but may be temporaly caught without a T crossed or an I dotted. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 5:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/32 "2006-05-03T05:44:33Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > However, I found out today that there’s a big fat Catch-22 that keeps the illegals from ever coming in legally. Our system allows 5,000 legal immigrants from Mexico yearly. Highly educated or highly skilled people get first chance. So, we get 5,000 doctors, engineers and toolmakers. Every Mexican who wants to come here to clean houses, bus tables, or pick tomatoes **has no choice but to enter illegally.** Well, they could choose **not** to enter illegally, couldn’t they? I want to have a Ferrari. If I can’t afford one, do I have “no choice” but to steal one? **Airman** : I’m still waiting for a cite validating your claim that people are using the phrase “criminalizing illegal aliens”. If you’re goint to rant agaist something, at least get your facts straight. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/33 "2006-05-03T05:49:01Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > That is exactly what I meant. IMO, if you’re illegal, you’re gone. By that I mean really illegal, i.e. jumped the border without even trying to immigrate properly, have a visa that’s far out of date meaning you just stayed when it expired, etc… Paperwork screwups should be allowed for and I have no desire to deport anyone who is properly “in the machine” but may be temporaly caught without a T crossed or an I dotted. That’s what I thought. And I agree with the rest. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/34 "2006-05-03T05:59:21Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Our system allows 5,000 legal immigrants from Mexico yearly. Do you have a cite for that? It’s an interesting argument but I haven’t seen a source backing it up. From the [U.S. Embassy](http://mexico.usembassy.gov/mexico/migration.html) in Mexico’s website: > [@The U.S. Embassy Folks](#): > > In 2002, as in 2001, the leading source country for legal immigrants was Mexico (219, 380 - 20.6%), followed by India (71,105 - 6.7%) and the People’s Republic of China (61,282 - 5.8%). That quote, if I’m reading it right, would lead me to believe that at least 219,380 immigrants can be allowed in from Mexico in a year’s span. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 7:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/35 "2006-05-03T07:13:06Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > I’ve never heard the phrase “criminalizing illegal aliens”. Can we have a link? Try Google; there are 3,690 hits. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/36 "2006-05-03T11:36:14Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > Dunno why you say this like it’s a good thing, Bob. Unlawful presence _should_ be a felony, and subject to immediate and summary deportation. Good for the Republicans for doing this. That sort of puts you in the minority. The Republicans are chastising the Democrats for failure to help bring it down from a felony to a misdemeanor and the Democrats didn’t even want to make it a misdemeanor. These are people who come in to try to make a better life for themselves doing the jobs that a lot of native Americans won’t do. Exactly what is felonious about that? ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 11:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/37 "2006-05-03T11:50:43Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > Do you have a cite for that? It’s an interesting argument but I haven’t seen a source backing it up. From the [U.S. Embassy](http://mexico.usembassy.gov/mexico/migration.html) in Mexico’s website: > That quote, if I’m reading it right, would lead me to believe that at least 219,380 immigrants can be allowed in from Mexico in a year’s span. I think he may have meant employment-based immigrants, the vast majority of whom are required to have at least a bachelor’s degree. [Here](http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_2868.html) is some info from the State Department on annual immigration quotas. As far as family-based immigration, spouses and parents of U.S. citizens are exempt from the annual quotas, but the total family-based immigration quota is 226,000, and the annual employment-based quota is 140,000. Only 7% of the total can go to natives of any single country, which means 9800 total employment-based for Mexico. The only category that will normally apply to unskilled workers (unless they meet one of the far less frequent criteria, like haveing served in a managerial position abroad for a multinational with an affiliated corporate entity in the U.S.) is 3rd preference “other workers.” That’s a 10,000 total annual quota for the entire world. You can see how that’s not a realistic thing to rely on, I hope. (And that’s AFTER the employer would have to prove to the Dept. of Labor that there are no available U.S. workers for what is, by defiition, a fairly low-skilled job.) ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/38 "2006-05-03T12:52:31Z")
> [@Eva Luna](#): > > I think he may have meant employment-based immigrants, the vast majority of whom are required to have at least a bachelor’s degree. [Here](http://www.travel.state.gov/visa/frvi/bulletin/bulletin_2868.html) is some info from the State Department on annual immigration quotas. Thanks. So not quite as bad as 5,000 slots but it still means a maximum of 700 day laborers, housekeepers and busboys per year. ---
**Author:** ![Elenfair](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/cc9497/32.png) [@Elenfair](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elenfair)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/39 "2006-05-03T13:48:14Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > That is exactly what I meant. IMO, if you’re illegal, you’re gone. By that I mean really illegal, i.e. jumped the border without even trying to immigrate properly (snip) Alright - I’m almost willing to agree with that, but I want it to extend to all the people who use the Visa Waiver Program though they have immigrant intent (are coming to see “the girlfriend” but really plan to get married, or stay). No more 10-foot-pole. No more coming to marry in the US while a visitor. Go home, spend your year waiting for your visa (or more), then come on down. If we had to jump through all those hoops, everyone should, right? Right. (No, I’m not being sarcastic.) This burns me just as much as “illegals” do - because lying at the POE is a crime, and hundreds of people get away with it every week. They come in with the supposed intent to “visit” but stay. Or they don’t have the money to apply for the visa, or don’t meet the Affidavit of Support financial requirements (125% poverty line) so they get around it this way. That, to me, is equally “illegal.” ---
**Author:** ![Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7cd45c/32.png) [@Misery\_Loves\_Co](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misery_Loves_Co)\ **Post date:** [May 3, 2006, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130/40 "2006-05-03T14:11:41Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > These are people who come in to try to make a better life for themselves doing the jobs that a lot of native Americans won’t do. Exactly what is felonious about that? That they don’t pay taxes, for one. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminalizing-illegal-aliens/355130.md?page=3)