# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/221 "2012-11-28T09:43:58Z")
How is it a “serious lesson” when they’re dead? I mean, they’re not learning from “the lesson” they were taught. Time in jail and rehab would’ve helped, but they weren’t violent criminals. I don’t even know why we’re calling them burglars. ---
**Author:** ![emoticorpse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@emoticorpse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emoticorpse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/222 "2012-11-28T10:01:58Z")
> [@](#): > > …Teen cousins shot dead trying to burglarize a home…[U.S. News | Latest National News, Videos & Photos - ABC News - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/US/minnesota-m...ry?id=17805260)… That’s why I’m calling them burglars, I think they intended on stealing something. Time in jail and rehab (MAY) have helped. I’m one of those people who doesn’t believe the correctional system does it’s job very well. I don’t like the idea of coddling any criminals. I think that’s what will be the motivation for them to act right. These teens know they’re not supposed to steal or break in to other people’s homes and they’ve learned it all through previous “lessons” whether it be parents telling them them, or watching what happened to someone else in the news somewhere in life they’re learned not to do it, but they did it anyways. They won’t learn and the “serious lesson” is a lesson in the sense that this time they won’t do it again, for sure. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/223 "2012-11-28T10:16:24Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > \*Last edited by emoticorpse; Today at 04:33 AM. Reason: mispelling \* LOL ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/224 "2012-11-28T10:42:06Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > That’s why I’m calling them burglars, I think they intended on stealing something. Time in jail and rehab (MAY) have helped. I’m one of those people who doesn’t believe the correctional system does it’s job very well. I don’t like the idea of coddling any criminals. I think that’s what will be the motivation for them to act right. These teens know they’re not supposed to steal or break in to other people’s homes and they’ve learned it all through previous “lessons” whether it be parents telling them them, or watching what happened to someone else in the news somewhere in life they’re learned not to do it, but they did it anyways. They won’t learn and the “serious lesson” is a lesson in the sense that this time they won’t do it again, for sure. From the abc link you quoted “trying to burglarize a home”. So attempted burglars then?? They might’ve done that before-- which is idiotic. I said before that a casualty of burglarizing is losing your head from a shotgun. And I’ll agree that the correctional system doesn’t do its job very well either. It is still not a “lesson” if someone is dead. A lesson is learned from. Making it a serious lesson would be 10-25 for trying it. And, no, before you go there-- breaking into a house with a well-armed maniac may be a possibility, but as **Zeriel** pointed out, in MN… > [@](#): > > "The `premeditation may be formed at any time, moment or instant before the killing. Premeditation means thought of beforehand for any length of time, no matter how short. There need be no appreciable space of time between the intention of killing and the act of killing. They may be as instantaneous as the successive thoughts of the mind.’ Two teens premeditating a burglary in an attempt to steal property/drugs/whatever it was, may have only taught them a lesson\* if they were left alive. \* And, like you said, there’s no chance of that now for them. However, the recommended minimum for the pre-meditated murder that Smith did is looking at a recommended 51 years. A warning shot, or a, “Hey, get the fuck out of my house you freaks,” seems like it would’ve been enough, but we’re still not sure, I suppose. So far, the cousins weren’t armed, several minutes took place between the killings, which were both self-admitted to me killings. Not shoot to get away and call the authorities, especially since over a day went by before authorities were notified. If there’s no evidence of an attempt of violence from the cousins, nor even any intoxication on both sides of this, Smith premeditated and carried out a dual murder. No, he didn’t plan it beforehand, it seems, but when the moment came, he went cuckoo for cocoa puffs. Still, I’m not betting on the evidence report being that simple in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 10:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/225 "2012-11-28T10:55:39Z")
Are warning shots legal? ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/226 "2012-11-28T11:10:16Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Are warning shots legal? In your own home with a registered weapon, I don’t see why not. Seems like some of the laws people have posted and most have agreed with. You break in to my place, I grab a registered firearm and shoot AND kill you, well, there better be no evidence I chased you around for an hour before doing so. But if I fired a couple rounds into my wall and you hightail it, hope they catch you so you can pay for my gunshot wall! 😃 And if I “get lucky” and bean you in the chest in a dark room, well, that could also be protecting myself, my family, etc. And by the way, don’t worry, Steophan, I’m firearm free and I doubt you have my address, but that’s not an invitation, of course. And I’m pretty sure you’re no burglar. So, no worries about that really happening. I’d most likely scream like a banshee if anyone broke into my place and I saw it happening. :eek: You can DEFEND your property, but not execute for it like Smith seems to have done, based on his own statement. ---
**Author:** ![emoticorpse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/22d042/32.png) [@emoticorpse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/emoticorpse)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 11:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/227 "2012-11-28T11:18:13Z")
I think we can all agree the execution method of killing was uncalled for. I am just choosing one of the options the OP offered. So after that the argument is whether or not they deserved to die at all for what they did. What did they do is what everyone begins to split up on. Did these guys have a sign saying we’re here for your property we’re not trying to kill you so don’t try to kill us no need to take it that far sir. Even if they did I would only assume they’re willing to go as far as breaking in my house I’m going to assume they’re ready or simply willing to kill me and when it comes to someone being ready to take my life I am going to be the one to take theirs first. ---
**Author:** ![Steophan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steophan/32/9595_2.png) [@Steophan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steophan)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/228 "2012-11-28T12:38:09Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > In your own home with a registered weapon, I don’t see why not. Seems like some of the laws people have posted and most have agreed with. You break in to my place, I grab a registered firearm and shoot AND kill you, well, there better be no evidence I chased you around for an hour before doing so. But if I fired a couple rounds into my wall and you hightail it, hope they catch you so you can pay for my gunshot wall! 😃 And if I “get lucky” and bean you in the chest in a dark room, well, that could also be protecting myself, my family, etc. > > And by the way, don’t worry, Steophan, I’m firearm free and I doubt you have my address, but that’s not an invitation, of course. And I’m pretty sure you’re no burglar. So, no worries about that really happening. I’d most likely scream like a banshee if anyone broke into my place and I saw it happening. :eek: > > You can DEFEND your property, but not execute for it like Smith seems to have done, based on his own statement. I remember reading about a case where someone was convicted on the basis of recklessness for firing a warning shot, the reasoning being that, if one has time to fire a warning shot, one isn’t in imminent danger. The implication was that, if one is in danger, shooting and killing was legal, but a warning shot was evidence that they weren’t in immediate danger. No cite, and no claim that I agree with the reasoning, but I’d like to know if there’s any truth to it, or if I’ve imagined it. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/229 "2012-11-28T12:48:47Z")
> [@emoticorpse](#): > > I think we can all agree the execution method of killing was uncalled for. Uncalled for? How about criminal? > [@](#): > > I am just choosing one of the options the OP offered. The OP presented a false dichotomy. > [@](#): > > So after that the argument is whether or not they deserved to die at all for what they did. Deserve to die? Well, I’m not sure the argument is that someone actually deserves death. The argument, at least as far as the law looks to layman me, is that the burglars took a chance on entering a house, any house. The resident therein is permitted to use deadly force to protect himself from the _presumed_ lethal danger that an unknown assailant presents. Once he’s rendered the assailant incapable, then there is no longer any danger. Nobody deserves to die because someone wants them dead. > [@](#): > > What did they do is what everyone begins to split up on. Did these guys have a sign saying we’re here for your property we’re not trying to kill you so don’t try to kill us no need to take it that far sir. Yeah, right. And criminals are known for being upright and honest. > [@](#): > > Even if they did I would only assume they’re willing to go as far as breaking in my house I’m going to assume they’re ready or simply willing to kill me and when it comes to someone being ready to take my life I am going to be the one to take theirs first. There’s the rub. Are you going to take their life when you know for a fact that they cannot take yours? That is, in fact, what the old dude in the story at hand confessed to doing. In short, he admitted committing two murders. His confession also indicates that he did so intentionally and with thought beforehand. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/230 "2012-11-28T13:01:21Z")
> [@Steophan](#): > > Are warning shots legal? The training I received as a deputy sheriff and at courses I took privately contraindicated the firing of warning shots. Basically, if you aren’t in enough danger to warrant the use of lethal force, you ought not to be firing the gun. ---
**Author:** ![Dunkelheit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dunkelheit/32/248_2.png) [@Dunkelheit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dunkelheit)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/231 "2012-11-28T14:16:01Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Yes, and it’s a sin to kill a mocking girl. Now, see, you could have used the word “bird” in this context, and it would have been even better. But I’ll still give you points for that. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/232 "2012-11-28T14:29:34Z")
> [@Dunkelheit](#): > > Now, see, you could have used the word “bird” in this context, and it would have been even better. I disagree, because I ain’t some poncy Englishman. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/233 "2012-11-28T14:29:59Z")
> [@Chimera](#): > > Haven’t read the entire thread. Have read the articles. > > The homeowner executed the kids in cold blood. The boy fell at his feet and so he aimed down and shot him in the face to finish him off. After shooting the girl and dragging her body over to the boy’s, she was still breathing, so, his rifle having jammed, he pulled out his pistol, placed it under her chin and fired into her brain. He clearly and openly admitted to having done this intentionally to kill her. > > He did not call the police until the next day. > > As such, his confession is on file. He admitted killing them, he admitted ‘finishing them off’. He is guilty of two counts of 2nd degree Murder under Minnesota law and I fully expect him to be tried and convicted on that. > > [Sec. 609.19 MN Statutes](https://www.revisor.mn.gov/statutes/?id=609.19) > > "Subdivision 1.Intentional murder; drive-by shootings. > > Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years: > > (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation" > > On another board after I posted this, a criminal attorney relatively local to the event stated that, if the man has no other criminal record, the sentencing guidelines recommend a sentence of 25.5 years. > Frankly, doesn’t matter what the family says about the kids. Has no bearing on the case. And as I said in another place; “ **‘good kids’ don’t do home invasions** ”. In fact, I could make a case for premeditation. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/234 "2012-11-28T14:34:57Z")
Per **Zeriel** ’s cite, Minnesota follows the rule that no time for reflection is required for premeditation. In the absence of public pressure, I would be surprised if the state doesn’t at least try for first degree. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/235 "2012-11-28T15:09:02Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > In fact, I could make a case for premeditation. It’s just that it’s more difficult, especially with a jury. Second degree is a pretty safe bet, and for a 64 year old man like him, 25 years is essentially a Life Sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/236 "2012-11-28T15:26:58Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Sorry, but you are just wrong. Social media IS the way that an incredible amount of information is shared now. I heard from a guy who knows a cop on the case who says that when they recovered the bodies they did not have a single drop of blood left in them!!!11! :eek: Vampires! ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/237 "2012-11-28T15:30:50Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > The training I received as a deputy sheriff and at courses I took privately contraindicated the firing of warning shots. Basically, if you aren’t in enough danger to warrant the use of lethal force, you ought not to be firing the gun. Everything I’ve ever heard or learned about firearms from any instructor or law officer backs this up. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/238 "2012-11-28T15:38:43Z")
Can any legal beagle explain to me how this > [@](#): > > Whoever does either of the following is guilty of murder in the second degree and may be sentenced to imprisonment for not more than 40 years: > > (1) causes the death of a human being with intent to effect the death of that person or another, but without premeditation" jibes with this > [@](#): > > "All the time needed for premeditation or deliberation is that required to form the intent to kill. Thus, the following instruction was sustained in State v. Prolow [98 Minn. 459, 461, 108 N.W. 873, 874 (1906)]: > "The `premeditation may be formed at any time, moment or instant before the killing. Premeditation means thought of beforehand for any length of time, no matter how short. There need be no appreciable space of time between the intention of killing and the act of killing. They may be as instantaneous as the successive thoughts of the mind.’ 2nd degree murder is causing death with intent to kill, but no premeditation. Premeditation can be simply the formation of intent to kill immediately prior to the act. Am I wrong in thinking that this interpretation of premeditation means that any 2nd degree murder charge can be argued as 1st degree? ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/239 "2012-11-28T16:41:12Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I heard from a guy who knows a cop on the case who says that when they recovered the bodies they did not have a single drop of blood left in them!!!11! No shit, it was all over the pavement. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/240 "2012-11-28T16:45:24Z")
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