# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/241 "2012-11-28T17:09:27Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Can any legal beagle explain to me how this > jibes with this > 2nd degree murder is causing death with intent to kill, but no premeditation. > > Premeditation can be simply the formation of intent to kill immediately prior to the act. > > Am I wrong in thinking that this interpretation of premeditation means that any 2nd degree murder charge can be argued as 1st degree? Once again, IANAL–but the primary differentiation I saw when I nosed around was between \*deliberation \*and not. For example, in the case I cited, the perp was deemed to have premeditated when he loaded his rifle prior to aiming and shooting. I’d expect to see 2nd-degree murder prosecutions hinge on whether or not there was an intent to kill–a guy firing in the general direction of a trespasser in the heat of the moment might argue there was no intent to kill, merely to wound or warn, so it was therefore 2nd-degree murder. ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/242 "2012-11-28T17:28:51Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’d expect to see 2nd-degree murder prosecutions hinge on whether or not there was an intent to kill That isn’t what the statute says, it says that for 2nd Degree, you must have intent, but not premeditation. The court instruction about premeditation seems to suggest that forming intent IS premeditation. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/243 "2012-11-28T17:29:30Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > What I said was that the info about them being known for break-ins (especially at Mr Smith’s house) was starting to come out. The sources are the various social media that people in the community are posting on. My link was for the first official broadcast of this info. Here’s what you said in post #205: > [@](#): > > It’s starting to come out that these two cousins may have had broken into this man’s house several times in the past, possibly as recently as a month beforehand. Both parties apparently knew each other - not surprising in a rural town with a population of only 8,000. You then proceeded to post a link to a source that said the pair were suspected of breaking into OTHER houses. Get your stories straight ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/244 "2012-11-28T17:53:40Z")
Let’s play a little game of what-if. If one of the burglars had managed to survive The Crazy Old Man’s gunfire, could that survivor be charged with felony murder under Minnesota law? ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/245 "2012-11-28T17:58:42Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Let’s play a little game of what-if. If one of the burglars had managed to survive The Crazy Old Man’s gunfire, could that survivor be charged with felony murder under Minnesota law? Why the _fuck_ would the survivor be charged with felony murder? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/246 "2012-11-28T18:13:06Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Why the _fuck_ would the survivor be charged with felony murder? You kiss your mother with that mouth? Because someone was killed during the commission of a felony. You don’t have to be the one who actually pulled the trigger to be charged with felony murder. Which five seconds of googling would have told you. You could, from there, have given an answer that actually mattered. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/247 "2012-11-28T18:14:58Z")
> [@Cheesesteak](#): > > Premeditation can be simply the formation of intent to kill immediately prior to the act. > > Am I wrong in thinking that this interpretation of premeditation means that any 2nd degree murder charge can be argued as 1st degree? The law of _mens rea_ (intent), like most things we inherited from the common law of England, is immensely complicated and often immensely silly. It appears that Minnesota no longer follows the rule **Zeriel** cited, and has instead adopted the (IMHO, more sensible) rule that some appreciable time for deliberation is required for premeditation: > [@](#): > > This court, and many other courts, have struggled to give effect to the distinction between these two degrees of homicide. That distinction is concerned with the time involved and the defendant’s state of mind. Premeditation, by definition, requires some amount of time to pass between formation of the intent and the carrying out of the act. To say, as we said in State v. Neumann, 262 N.W.2d 426, 430 (Minn.1978), that premeditation may occur “virtually instantaneously” with the formation of the intent to kill blurs the line between first and second degree murder when it is evident that the legislature intended the line to be sufficiently distinct to justify punishing persons convicted of the different crimes differently. While we have long recognized that premeditation requires no specific period of time for deliberation, State v. Gowdy, 262 Minn. 70, 75, 113 N.W.2d 578, 581 (1961), or extensive planning, State v. Richardson, 393 N.W.2d at 664, the state must always prove that, after the defendant formed the intent to kill, some appreciable time passed during which the consideration, planning, preparation or determination required by Minn.Stat. § 609.18 prior to the commission of the act took place. > > State v. Moore, 481 N.W.2d 355, 360-61 (Minn. 1992). > [@](#): > > The court instruction about premeditation seems to suggest that forming intent IS premeditation. That would be misleading. Intent and premeditation are distinct elements (though you can’t have premeditation without intent). A homicide committed without intent isn’t a murder at all. It would be manslaughter. [QUOTE=Scumpup] Let’s play a little game of what-if. If one of the burglars had managed to survive The Crazy Old Man’s gunfire, could that survivor be charged with felony murder under Minnesota law? [/QUOTE] Yes. The felony-murder rule doesn’t care about who causes the fatal wound, just that it occurs without a break in the chain of causation. If the kids had escaped, reached a place of safety, and were then hunted down by the old man, for example, the rule would not apply. [QUOTE=Czarcasm] Why the fuck would the survivor be charged with felony murder? [/QUOTE] Because somebody was killed as the result of a felony perpetrated by the survivor. If you rob a store, and your accomplice is killed by the police in an ensuing shootout, you’re up for felony murder. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/248 "2012-11-28T18:25:07Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Because somebody was killed as the result of a felony perpetrated by the survivor. If you rob a store, and your accomplice is killed by the police in an ensuing shootout, you’re up for felony murder. Would the shooter and the escapee _both_ be charged with felony murder? Is there a cite for this ever happening before? Edited to add: Has this ever happened in a case where there was no return fire and the initial act was clearly murder, and not self defense? ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/249 "2012-11-28T18:25:52Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > Here’s what you said in post #205: > You then proceeded to post a link to a source that said the pair were suspected of breaking into OTHER houses. > > Get your stories straight Unbunch your panties and be patient. Information about the prior robberies is coming out, and that just was the first official news report. There will be more. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/250 "2012-11-28T18:29:53Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > If the kids had escaped, reached a place of safety, and were then hunted down by the old man, for example, the rule would not apply. Or in other words, if it was a case of murder, and not self-defense. Does that not apply here? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/251 "2012-11-28T18:33:59Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Would the shooter and the escapee _both_ be charged with felony murder? Is there a cite for this ever happening before? > Edited to add: Has this ever happened in a case where there was no return fire and the initial act was clearly murder, and not self defense? > [@Czarcasm](#): > > Or in other words, if it was a case of murder, and not self-defense. Does that not apply here? Are you asking if the old man broke the chain of causation when he shot the second kid in cold blood? Possibly. I suspect not, though, as the shooting was still part of an unbroken line of events because the kids were still in the house (and the burglary was therefore not complete). ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/252 "2012-11-28T18:39:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Are you asking if the old man broke the chain of causation when he shot the second kid in cold blood? Possibly. I suspect not, though, as the shooting was still part of an unbroken line of events because the kids were still in the house (and the burglary was therefore not complete). So if the second burglar had immediately abandoned the cousin there would only be one felony murder charge, but sticking around to see if the cousin was hurt would trigger the 2nd felony murder charge? ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/253 "2012-11-28T18:44:10Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Unbunch your panties and be patient. Information about the prior robberies is coming out, and that just was the first official news report. There will be more. Well then, I suggest you wait for "more’ and don’t indulge in idle speculation that you got from some random teenager’s facebook page or twitter feed. ---
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/254 "2012-11-28T18:48:08Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Unbunch your panties and be patient. Information about the prior robberies is coming out, and that just was the first official news report. There will be more. I’m sorry, but it’s clear that you lied to us. You can never be Secretary-of-State now. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/255 "2012-11-28T18:57:03Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > So if the second burglar had immediately abandoned the cousin there would only be one felony murder charge, but sticking around to see if the cousin was hurt would trigger the 2nd felony murder charge? Eh? For a second felony murder charge, there would have to be a second murder. If the second kid gets killed, there will be no felony murder charges at all, because the kids are both dead. The old man can’t be charged with felony murder because he hasn’t committed an underlying felony, just the murder itself. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/256 "2012-11-28T19:00:56Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Eh? For a second felony murder charge, there would have to be a second murder. If the second kid gets killed, there will be no felony murder charges at all, because the kids are both dead. > > The old man can’t be charged with felony murder because he hasn’t committed an underlying felony, just the murder itself. I’d like to see a cite of a similar circumstance-nonviolent burglary, burglar murdered, and accomplice survives to get charged with a greater charge than the actual murderer. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/257 "2012-11-28T19:03:40Z")
I imagine this a fairly rare scenario. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/258 "2012-11-28T19:08:11Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d like to see a cite of a similar circumstance-nonviolent burglary, burglar murdered, and accomplice survives to get charged with a greater charge than the actual murderer. [http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083\_162-10010734-4.html](http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-504083_162-10010734-4.html) ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/259 "2012-11-28T19:08:41Z")
They wrote the law that way-surely they had at least _one_ case of something like that happening. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2012, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/260 "2012-11-28T19:10:45Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > I’d like to see a cite of a similar circumstance-nonviolent burglary, burglar murdered, and accomplice survives to get charged with a greater charge than the actual murderer. That isn’t what anybody said could have hypothetically happened here. Hypothetically, the surviving burglar could be charged with felony murder due to the death of his accomplice. The Crazy Old Man will be facing homicide charges for the death of one burglar (Murder 1 a possibility) and possibly other charges for shooting the second burglar. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=14)