# Criminals who got what they deserved...or precious snowflakes tragically murdered? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2012, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209 "2012-11-26T22:45:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/281 "2012-11-30T03:19:01Z")
> [@Sanity\_Challenged](#): > > Because it’s pointless. > > A few years ago, my house was broken into 3 times over a 2 week period. I only made one police report, because the cops really don’t do much. If you don’t have any new evidence (ie, got a look at the guy), and don’t need a report for insurance purposes, there really is no point. He says $10,000 worth of stuff was taken from him, what insurance company doesn’t need a police report? ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/282 "2012-11-30T03:55:16Z")
> [@Snow\_Pea](#): > > Cite: [http://www.startribune.com/local/180853761.html](http://www.startribune.com/local/180853761.html) From that linked article. > [@](#): > > He asked a neighbor the next morning if he knew any lawyers, and that neighbor apparently called police. Yikes. I wonder what he was planning on doing. Also from the article: > [@](#): > > Smith told police he armed himself with a rifle and a handgun and waited downstairs until he saw the first person’s feet, then legs, then hips. > > He said he fired and the first victim, Brady, tumbled down the stairs. While Brady looked up at him, he shot him in the face, according to the complaint. > > “I want him dead,” he told investigators. > > He put Brady’s body on a tarp and dragged him into his basement workshop and sat back down in his chair. > > Several minutes later, he heard more footsteps and saw Kifer coming down the stairs. He waited until he saw her hips, then fired. Ambush city. Shoot the first, then move the body so the second one doesn’t see it. Clever, but you’re still guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/283 "2012-11-30T04:12:49Z")
Clever? Delusions of being Rambo. Or maybe John Wayne. I could see arming yourself with a rifle and pistol _or_ a shotgun and a pistol, but a shotgun and a rifle? What was he planning to do, hop on his (hobby)horse and fire like he was chasing down the Indians on the Plains? ---
**Author:** ![Snow\_Pea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/dbc845/32.png) [@Snow\_Pea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snow_Pea)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/284 "2012-11-30T04:27:43Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Clever? Delusions of being Rambo. Or maybe John Wayne. I could see arming yourself with a rifle and pistol _or_ a shotgun and a pistol, but a shotgun and a rifle? What was he planning to do, hop on his (hobby)horse and fire like he was chasing down the Indians on the Plains? Umm, what? He _had_ a rifle and a pistol. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 4:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/285 "2012-11-30T04:43:37Z")
Sorry, for some reason I read “handgun” as “shotgun”. The dude’s still a Rambo-/John Wayne-wannabe, though. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 1:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/286 "2012-11-30T13:24:12Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > Sorry, for some reason I read “handgun” as “shotgun”. The dude’s still a Rambo-/John Wayne-wannabe, though. Either way, you don’t get to make a trap, shoot people, reset the trap, and claim self defense. OK, technically he didn’t set a trap, but the moving the body and laying in wait again is fucked up. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/287 "2012-11-30T13:51:33Z")
Yep. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/288 "2012-11-30T14:17:47Z")
These two “upstanding citizens” who were “murdered”-is there any info on their contributions to society? Were they gainfully employed? Yes, the old man probably exceeded his right to self-defense…but the fact remaions that he had a very reasonable fear fore his life. I think that the judge should give him an extremely strong lecture-he needs to be made aware of the laws. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/289 "2012-11-30T14:22:37Z")
The operative word in that sentence is _had_. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/290 "2012-11-30T15:02:28Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > ..but the fact remaions that he had a very reasonable fear fore his life. If you missed it the first N times it came up in the thread, most posters agree he had an acceptable reason for making the first shot. The argument is that following up his first shots by calmly and methodically finishing off the teens and then neglecting to inform the police for a day go way beyond fearing for his well being (much less being an imminent threat anymore). The moral worth of the intruders is immaterial to that. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/291 "2012-11-30T15:11:25Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > These two “upstanding citizens” who were “murdered”-is there any info on their contributions to society? Were they gainfully employed? I’m hoping you actually do realize that those questions are irrelevant. _Nobody_ deserves to be murdered. Vigilante justice isn’t actually justice. > [@](#): > > Yes, the old man probably exceeded his right to self-defense Probably? Well, I guess you’re technically right in that 1:1 is a valid term in Probability. > [@](#): > > ..but the fact remaions that he had a very reasonable fear fore his life. _Initially_, he had a presumptive fear for his life. After he rendered the burglars incapable, he no longer had any fear whatsoever. He evidenced (how many times does the term _evidence_ in all its forms have to be used in this thread before some folks realize what it means?) that he had no fear when he dragged one victim and left him to suffer, die, and decompose. After the second burglar came down the steps, he may have had another presumptive fear for his life until–you knew this was coming, right?–he rendered that burglar incapable. He yet again evidenced he had no fear for his life when he calmly killed his victim because the victim upset him. So, what do you think he was afraid of for the day he spent waiting to call the cops? > [@](#): > > I think that the judge should give him an extremely strong lecture-he needs to be made aware of the laws. WTF? He needs to be prosecuted for the crimes he’s admitted to committing and which the evidence (there’s that word again) shows he committed. A freaking lecture for two stone cold murders? Please do whatever you can, within the law of course, to be excused from duty the next time you’re called up for jury duty, please. Seriously. If nothing else, show this post to the judge. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/292 "2012-11-30T15:32:17Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I’m hoping you actually do realize that those questions are irrelevant. _Nobody_ deserves to be murdered. Not every murder is a cause for great sorrow, though. I will not argue that The Crazy Old Man doesn’t deserve prosecution. However, I just cannot summon up any sense of loss either personally or on behalf of society over the deaths of two thieves. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/293 "2012-11-30T15:52:09Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Not every murder is a cause for great sorrow, though. I will not argue that The Crazy Old Man doesn’t deserve prosecution. However, I just cannot summon up any sense of loss either personally or on behalf of society over the deaths of two thieves. Christian analogy on a silver platter for the taking, folks. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/294 "2012-11-30T15:56:40Z")
One does have to wonder what sort of “hobby” he was working on in that basement, and did it involve a gimp? ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/295 "2012-11-30T15:56:51Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Not every murder is a cause for great sorrow, though. I will not argue that The Crazy Old Man doesn’t deserve prosecution. However, I just cannot summon up any sense of loss either personally or on behalf of society over the deaths of two thieves. I can. Being a thief isn’t the most attractive, nor even most intelligent, job on the planet; however, it certainly doesn’t qualify as is a capital crime. ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/296 "2012-11-30T15:57:24Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > However, I just cannot summon up any sense of loss either personally or on behalf of society over the deaths of two thieves. Yes, as a society we should just go back to death sentence for all criminals. Makes sense. You see, it is not the “death” of two thieves. It is the “murder” of two thieves. Herein is the difference. Were two thieves breaking into a place and through their stupidity slip, fall down the stairs and die, well that is an accident. But if society allows people to take justice into their own hands, we as a society lose. ETA: Or what Monty said ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/297 "2012-11-30T15:59:04Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Not every murder is a cause for great sorrow, though. I will not argue that The Crazy Old Man doesn’t deserve prosecution. However, I just cannot summon up any sense of loss either personally or on behalf of society over the deaths of two thieves. I’m right with you. The Crazy Old Man’s initial shot at each intruder was 100% justified; it was when he set himself up as judge and executioner over a crippled assailant rather than allow society’s justice to take over that he became as much or more of a menace than the thieves. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/298 "2012-11-30T16:01:26Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I can. Being a thief isn’t the most attractive, nor even most intelligent, job on the planet; however, it certainly doesn’t qualify as is a capital crime. The biggest problem is that I, as a random person, cannot know if someone who breaks into my occupied house is a thief or a murderer. In some sense, it qualifies as a capital crime to the extent that I as a homeowner feel threatened by their presence inside my home, y’know? ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/299 "2012-11-30T16:07:53Z")
> [@Monty](#): > > I can. Being a thief isn’t the most attractive, nor even most intelligent, job on the planet; however, it certainly doesn’t qualify as is a capital crime. I did not claim it did. In fact, I indicated that I’m good with TCOM being prosecuted for the killings. Lack of heartache that two thieves chose to burglarize a crazy man and paid with their lives in no way indicates that I consider burglary a capital crime. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2012, 4:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209/300 "2012-11-30T16:08:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > The biggest problem is that I, as a random person, cannot know if someone who breaks into my occupied house is a thief or a murderer. In some sense, it qualifies as a capital crime to the extent that I as a homeowner feel threatened by their presence inside my home, y’know? I know that, as I said above, the old dude in question had a presumption initially that his life was threatened by the unknown persons in his home. Once he removed their capability to threaten him, then I know for a fact that there is no threat to his life. He removed their capability and then he killed them. Care to take a wild guess what such a killing is called? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/criminals-who-got-what-they-deserved-or-precious-snowflakes-tragically-murdered/642209.md?page=16)